I wanted to write about this couple of days ago, on the international day against homophobia, but i guess it would have been too predictable, like writing about women rights on 8th of March. Besides, it’s always a burning subject, not just here in Serbia but everywhere in the world where GLB and other sexual minorities’ abbrevations’ rights are not respected, so you get to read about it today, on the day of Montenegro independence day (not connected in any way).
Because of the desire to be a part of the globalization process and the need to follow the current world trends and not differ from most world countries, Serbia is unfortunately in danger of having it’s national indentity lost to a global trend of homophobia. But, have no fear, because we our own differentia specifica, several of them in fact:
1. In Serbia, being gay is considered to be a fad. A trend that is going to pass, just like the seventies zvoncare jeans and the eighties minival haircut.
2. It is a fad coming from the Western hemisphere. Not only that this feature is, of apparent reasones, completely unexistant in the West, but, surprisingly enough, they don’t even try and argue that gayness is a trend coming from the East.
3. Gay people are considered to be a direct threat to a number of people born in Serbia (it is always good to have many people born in your country so they could go and fight in wars and stuff).
4. It is generally believed that the number of gay people is increasing, even without any specific evidence other than with a odokativno method.
5. Homophobia in Serbia is in great deal supported by the Serbian Orthodox church, always a strong tool against homosexualism, as it considers gays to be even lower creatures than women.
6. If you are gay, it is very unlikely that you are infact a Serb – it is more likely that you are a Croat (Ustasa), a Bosniak (Balija), an Albanian (Siptar), or a Slovenian (Gay).
7. Some Serbs consider being gay completely ok and there’s nothing wrong with it, but are absolutely against gays adopting kids, because kids can also become gay (which is, if you look at the beggining of the sentence, completely ok and there’s nothing wrong with it).
8. Gay parades are “completelly unnecessarry”: – imagine if we heterosexuals were to make a parade and walk the streets holding hands and kissing openly our heterosexual partners – what would the streets of Belgrade look like!
9. Being gay in Serbia is completely ok, but if you do it in the privacy of your home – have you ever seen a heterosexual couple in the streets showing openly that they are infact hetero? I didn’t think so.
10. World health organization naively removed homosexuality of the list of mental ilnesses on the 17th of May 1990. Serbian medic society still refuses to confirm this with an official statement, seventeen years later, because we are not that easily fooled.
As you can see, there are some striking distinctions between a global and a Serbian gay-bashing style, so it’s safe to say that globalization hasn’t yet taken it’s toll in this area – god forbid if we used the same old arguments for homophobia like they do elsewhere in the world.
Homophobia in Serbian media:
The first gay pride parade in Serbia:
Ok, so now it’s your turn: what’s your favorite excuse for being a homophobe?
{ 42 comments… read them below or add one }
actually, that seems to be the top ten distinctive features of universal homophobes; and not just Serbian homophobes.
one of my travel guide books pointed out that Belgrade was the most tolerant town in Serbia for gays and lesbians; which may not be saying a lot.
How does the situation in Beograd compare to other towns like Novi Sad etc?
Is there a difference between how gay males are precieved and how lesbians are precieved?
Viktor, it seems more and more evident that what you practice is a combination of Serbophobia and Viktorphobia. Or am I mistaken about the continual smarmy remarks about Serbs that come from your keyboard; perhaps it’s not self-hatred so much as that rare condition of Viktorphilism and therefore you imagine you are so “superior” to your fellow Serbs that the only way you can possibly get through your normal day is to wear a clothespeg on your nose, as otherwise your hands wouldn’t be free to type your typical denigrations of the people around you.
Shaina,
Blast! I was afraid that these features were infact universal, but i thought i’d give it a try… As for the other cities, I think the situation is pretty much the same all over the place, hopefully someone from some other town will post some impressions.
Lesbians are given some credit in comparisson to gay guys, I’m not sure why but i believe the image of two females together is not so terrible to a typical homophobe as the image of two guys getting it on.
Blackbird,
I’m generalizing, of course, but the fact is that those who don’t have anything against homosexuals here in Serbia are in great minority compared to those who would defend most of the points above.
Yes Viktor, I am afraid these features are universal.
Although we have the “Life Ball” and the gay parade here in Vienna, you only have to listen to the “average” person to realize how much homophobia is still around. Gay Austrians are fighting for years now to get some legal rights but each government tries to avoid the issue!
Viktore,
I’m afraid that this behavior is present all around the world.
In Italy for example, the catholic church (you know, we’re nto very lucky of having the vatican and its midageval ideas) in this period is leading a real crusade against every attempt to give gay ands lesbians the basic civil rights, such as the reknow by law of gays couple.
About Serbia (that I love, and where I go often) are you sure that the majority of people are against homosexuals, or maybe (like in many other matters) there’s a minority quite more visible?
Pozdrav iz Torina!
beppe
You know I wonder about this fad stuff that I have also heard said. I ask myself why the need for some people to believe that its all some kind of fashion.
Actually I have never seen any kind of a decent debate on the gay issue in Serbia. I dont think that people are even aware of the debate raging in some circles (I suppose in the west but not exclusively so) as to whether one is born gay or whether its in some way behavioural.
To ‘dip our toes’ into this debate a few main points argued. If one is born gay one cannot help it and no amount of re-programming – through religion or kidnap brainwashing will help. The implication is society should get over this state of affairs and stop trying to change other peoples sexuality. On the other hand if gays are to agree with this premise that it is born not learnt in some way then it can still be argued that being gay is some kind of defect. Again if this can be ‘corrected’ before a person is conceived etc etc…
Therefore some gays prefer to argue that they choose to be gay – you know being ‘liberated’ or choosing something is often important to people.
My view is that most homosexuals are born that way but there is an element of choice and yes there are even a few individuals who kind of experiment on the fad level.
Actually I think the topic is quite interesting to discuss because there is a lot of hypocricy involved and even dishonesty within the gay community (or perhaps not community, more official groups) itself.
For example most people are familiar with what they consider signs as to whether a person is gay or not. If we apply this to the debate I mentioned what does this mean?
That type of behaviour / mannerisms are either born or learnt.
The implication is that if somebody gay lives, say, on an imaginary, deserted island somewhere and is not exposed to western culture (lets really dumb down here – ie Will and Grace) and still displays ‘behaviour’ recognisable to some of us as gay then I contend this ‘behaviour’ cannot be learnt or copied. The implications are plain.
On gay parades I also have quite a specific view. Although I defend the right to march and defend the right of those marching not to be beaten by skinheads and their ilk, at the same time I think classic parades are not the best method in Serbia. I think one has to understand the fearful reaction of (ordinary) people with no idea about the issue – they react emotionally in the absence of facts.
In a country like Serbia one should not try to force the issue and confront. There are alternative activities that can be undertaken. Gays have to understand that they are not marching to make themselves feel good about being gay, they are trying or should be trying to undertake activities to ensure that they are not discriminated against. Thus if the end result of a gay parade is more resistence or anger from mainstream society it is completely counter-productive.
But people do search for acceptance, for victories, for catharsis and are continually disapointed by the response. I often think the answer is to stay logical, learn the facts, act accordingly and keep emotion away if at all possible.
I hope I’m not offending anybody I dont mean to.
The problem isn’t this-phobia, that-phobia or the other-phobia, the problem is phobia pure and simple. People who have a surplus of bile who seem to feel a need to vomit it over other people. You’d think enough water had gone under the bridge since 1991 for people to understand the consequences of substituting group contempt for individual respect.
“Actually I have never seen any kind of a decent debate on the gay issue in Serbia. I dont think that people are even aware of the debate raging in some circles (I suppose in the west but not exclusively so) as to whether one is born gay or whether its in some way behavioural.”
I think that there is no longer (or at least not to this extent) a strong debate over the nature v. nuture argument in the mainstream anymore. Several years ago, there used to be articles in Newsweek and Time etc. all devoted to the issue of whether being gay was a choice or not. I don’t have any stats to back me up right now; but I think that at least in the “mainstream” we’ve somewhat moved passed the nature v. nuture debate. Or, at least, it isn’t an issue that media is really covering right now.
About the parades: I understand where your argument is coming from; that there should be more focus on ending discrimination; and that parades are counter-productive in that matter; because it only inflames the “average person” and makes it harder to end the underlying discrimination. But, I think you might be missing the emotional aspect of the parades for the particpants. The big step it probably takes to walk down a street in Belgrade and to declare oneself openinly gay; the idea of wanting (and being able) to have the right to be out in the mainstream.
Shaina its precisely the emotional aspect that doesnt interest me. If one wants to parade deliberately to vent some emotion because one feels in some way oppressed it is understandable. But that doesnt mean its the right thing to do or that it will help the position of gays. That issue must be the priority and even if most gays dont see this that doesnt mean we have to go along with what they support.
If such actions prove unproductive or even increase homophobia then I am forced to ask myself what was the point in the first place. If I was gay (luckily, I dont have to face that kind of issue) I would hope I could understand that it is within myself that I have to find peace and try to accept the fact that some will simply never accept me in the same way they would if I was hetro. However, I would strongly support initiatives that might encourage incremental change in peoples attitudes above all to create a rational debate and education on the issue. As I say the issue has barely been discussed here in any depth. But ok, a parade isnt completely out of the question in my mind. I would probably advice joining forces with other related issues and not make the parade gay specific but make that part of the issue. That way there would be both greater numbers and society would be less threatened.
Generally I don’t consider myself to be a homophobe, however the issue of a gay parade doesn’t make any sense to me. I have witnessed a gay parade in Berlin and for me it looks more like a hedonist event, than an event that adresses a serious issue. All the time I had the feeling that I was watching an exhibitionist event which was purely intended to provoke. The problems of the homosexual should adressed in another, more serious manner in order to regarded seriously, so in this point I quote bganon when he says “That way there would be both greater numbers and society would be less threatened”.
I agree with most of you that homophobia is pretty much the same everywhere and that the same moral/natural/patriotic arguments are used. I think what is much more important is how people chose to deal with homophobia and what the official policy of the state is: I don’t mind if there are people out there who think that being gay is wrong. I do mind, however if they discriminate against someone for being gay or use violence or if the state does nothing or not enough to prevent this and promote tolerance.
So yes, homophobia exists everywhere, but as a gay Serb, I can say that I felt much safer in other countries which some of you mentioned – for instance in Milan, or Vienna (not to mention Berlin) then here. Belgrade is easier to live in then the rest of Serbia, simply because it’s big, the gay population is bigger and more integrated and people mind their own business more then elsewhere, and probably things have improved slightly since more people have come into contact with the issue (if in no other way then through films and tv), but I still wouldn’t dare to kiss my boyfriend in the street.
And BG Anon, as interesting as the whole topic of how one becomes gay is, it is beside the point. The same goes for parades. Whether people are born gay or decide it, whether parades make sense or not, to discriminate against gay people is wrong. I’m worried that this is not specified in our constitution for instance. I’m worried that no political party dares to speak about this issue. I’m not talking about marriages and adoptions at this point, but some basic protection or the same rights unmarried straight couples have.
I personally do not see an issue of someone being gay or not. I feel that the whole topic is more to discriminate gays positively, rather than making them equal. After all , what is a gay? Its the sexual preferance, of how one preson decides to live his/hers sexual life, and for me that is the private thing.
I am against the gay marriges, because if we step away from the teachings we had so far( relgious, traditional, etc.) then where do we draw the line. The supporters of the gay marriges say, that people that love each other should be given the same opportunity as heterosexuals to be recognised legaly. And that is ok with me, but then we discriminate individuals that are in incest relationships. They also love each other, so why dont we allow them to get married as well?
I personally do not see how gays are discriminated. For example if you go to a job interview, nobody will ask you what your sexual preferance is. If you didnt speak out that you are gay, nobody would know. goes for the same for heterosexuals who support poligamy ( I dont see people who cheat on their spouses having parades about it).
I know my comment seems a bit harsh, but personally i have nothing against gays, i just think that sexual preferance is not a race or a group, but rather a personal choice. And just to make this clear, I do not support any violance against any individual, so when i see gays being attacked, i would be on the side of gays.
‘And BG Anon, as interesting as the whole topic of how one becomes gay is, it is beside the point. ‘
I think my main point is that there is such lack of knowledge on the issue or issues connected with homosexuality in general. That is something that should be redressed in my opinion. The issue of parades is a huge issue within the gay community in Serbia, as I think you know and even though I dont think its the most important issue it isnt besides the point either.
Ivan gays do face discrimination, not just at job interviews. Its no surprise to me that some gays feel such a need for acceptance in society. I dont know how I’d feel if people wouldnt make friends with me, moved away from me physically when talking and so on, year on year. Of course this doesnt happen to everybody who is gay but it doesnt take a great leap of imagination to think how this might affect a person.
But why must gays have a parade? Sounds like just aping the west.
Then there is the issue of an increased incidence and risk of rectal cancer with gay men. Obviously it is not good for that place as the cells go in revolt.
Can Serbia afford the extra cost of healthcare of increased gay activity caused by promoting and advertising it by parades and such. This will encourage more sodomy and therefore more cancer.
I absolutely love comments starting with “I have nothing against…but” and then a big BUT (with rectal cancer).
I’m not even going to get into the argumentation of gay vs. incest, pedophilia, and all other issues which are so often and with ease grouped together by “traditional values” supporters. And, Ivan, yes, discrimination against gay people does indeed exist – at work, in health-care, in families, at schools, in the army… I don’t know how many gay people you know, but it can be difficult. Keeping quiet about your personal life is all fine and dandy in a casual chat at a party, but try keeping it up for years.
And, really, Ida, this is such a malevolent twisting of facts. Increased risk of rectal cancer is the least of this county’s worries. Promoting tolerance will not cause “increased gay activity”. Gay people already exist. This type of argumentation really requires very banal answers like: people become smokers by their own free will which increases the risk of lung cancer not just for the smoker but all around him/her, and still no-one will bash your head for lighting a cigarette, or lesbians don’t have anal sex, or straight people do, or how about the cost to the state due to unwanted pregnancies/abandoned children that straight people cause. Are you saying people should be denied treatment if they are in any way responsible for becoming sick? Or are you saying that there is a need for better medical and sexual education in this country? If the later is the case, I agree. Sexual education in this country is generally at a low level, for both gay and straight people. Openness and understanding can only help address such issues with all the risks and benefits involved.
Bg Anon, I completely agree there’s a need for a discussion or better yet education, to bring this issue closer to people and make them see that gay people are just regular people. I’m just afraid of this discussion being sidetracked by all these arguments of what caused it, and whether it can be “fixed”, when it is basically a technical issue of human rights for a population which is by no means a threat to anyone.
And finally, I don’t know why gays have to have a parade. We don’t. I’m guessing it’s some sort of symbolic gesture. Personally I don’t care if there’s a parade as long as everything else is ok. But then if everything is ok, why not have a parade? At least for fun?
Marko,
there is a big difference of incest and pedofilia. I am not supporting it, but i am talking about where do we draw the line. My arguments go to the fact that i am against the gay marrige and allowing the gay people to adopt children. There is a reason why the tradition supports the idea of men and woman in a marrige, and that is to ensure the continuity of population and creating the healthy enviroment for childrens upbringing. Ofcourse nothing is perfect, but the tradition hopes for a stable family.
Allowing gays to marry goes against the tradition, with the excuse those that love each other should have the same rights as heterosexuals. OK, no problems, but dont you have cases of adult people who are in an incest relationship also loving each other. Please pay attention to the word adult ( 18 + in age). So why discriminate them? Where do we draw the line?
As for discrimination against gays, yes on a community level there is, but from a legal stand point you are not discriminated. But arent we all discriminated by the choices of how we want to live our life. A punk will be looked at differently than a person who tries to fit in the mass. The good thing is that we have the freedom of choice. If you want to be like everybody else, then you have to behave so, but if you want to be different, then expect different treatement.
Being gay is not written on your face, its your choice of how you chose to communicate that to the rest of the world. Its your sexual preferance, and you have the right to it.
What concerns me more is not the position of people with homosexual preferance in Serbia, but more of the position of people of a different race in Serbia. And yes you are a Serb even if you are gay!
Here is something that you cannot blame on the Serbs — so sorry, Viktor and Balkan Brat, Ed.
http://www.queerty.com/queer/news/kosovo-crazies-threaten-gay-leader-20070524.php
Kosovo Crazies Threaten Gay Leader
Give New Meaning To “Lewd”
KOSOVOPRPL.jpg
Man oh man, some homophobes in Kosovo have serious issues! An anymous person or persons sent a hateful note to the leader of the gay rights group, Centre for Social Emancipation. The” revolutionary” recipient – known only as Mr. Z – couldn’t believe the severity of the threats, which translate thus: “We will fuck you mother, burn you with all your belongings, and will make you carry your intestines in your own hands, you lewd man”. Talk about lewd! The author goes on to accuse Mr.Z of “smearing the pure and freedom-seeking nation” and says he should “prepare his funeral within two weeks”. Yikes!
Despite the imminence of the warnings, the Serbian province’s police initially refused to pursue the case. Looking for some justice, the CSE enlisted the help of the Youth Initiative for Human Rights. Under growing pressure, the police opened an allegedly flawed exploration. A CSE spokesperson declares:
We believe that Mr. Z’s right to use all the possible legal remedies has been violated by the police officers… His privacy was not respected as he was being interviewed in the reception room and at least seven different police officers and random citizens walked into the room, thus stopping the interview process and finding out what had happened.
Poor Mr. Z. Always last on the list of priorities…
I watched the gay pride parade video on YouTube. One question: Why are the police so completely ineffective in this country? I’ve witnessed fighting on the street on Serbian New Year and after a routine traffic accident and now fighting in this YouTube video. On all occasions, the police did nothing to stop the fighting nor did they arrest the attackers. Do the police not care or are they simply too weak and afraid to act? Whichever it is, the police in the YouTube video should be fired for substandard performance. I have no tolerance for these thugs in the video, but I have equally less tolerance for pathetic police officers.
Ivan, incest is, I guess, primarily banned because of serious health risks to potential children from these relationships. Gay people cannot have children on their own.
As for traditional marriages, they’ve been around for a while and I don’t see the world being a place of love and understanding. In counties where gay people are allowed to adopt, they undergo a number of psychological, financial and other tests to determine their eligibility. I don’t see how growing up with, say, two dads is worse than growing up in an orphanage or in an abusive family. A straight couple does not automatically make good parents just because they are biologically able to get offspring.
But there are many issues besides children. Very technical issues like inheritance, insurance, pensions, mortgages, credits, assets division in case of separation, right to visit your loved one in hospital, prison or wherever. It does not have to be called marriage, in many counties it’s a civil partnership, but these are very important issues.
From a legal point, apart from a couple of individual laws, discrimination based on sexual preference is not specifically forbidden by the constitution as the supreme legal act of this country, which is either a very big oversight or, more likely, a very deliberate act of discrimination. I agree people who fit in completely will feel safest, but we should at least try to make a climate in which everyone can feel a little safer, and this is not being done. No politician publicly speaks out against discrimination of gay people which can be easily interpreted as approval. So can the police reaction that NYCG mentioned.
It is up to individuals to decide how they deal with their own sexuality, but also to realize that other people’s sexuality is not something that one has to get red-eyed and foamy-mouthed about. I still don’t understand why a small and unthreatening part of the population causes such rage in many.
And I completely agree with your concern for minorities in Serbia, but I don’t think that any minority will truly feel safe or integrated as long as violence or abuse of another is being allowed. The only tolerant society is one that is tolerant to all who do not pose a threat to that society.
“Ivan, incest is, I guess, primarily banned because of serious health risks to potential children from these relationships.”
But you just said that the increased cancer risk due to gay practices – oral, rectal and anal – is not an issue. Also gays who foster and adopt children have been involved is greater frequency to the general public of sodomizing or sexually abusing them. I read of a recent case in Britain where a special-needs child adopted by gays was made to watch gay porn day in and day out, and now he is psychologically messed up. I think those two men were the very first to be granted the rights to adopt or something.
Ida,
Sorry I cannot follow your arguments.
The increased cancer risk due to gay practices is new to me.
Also there are millions of children who get abused (physically and mentally) daily by (foster, adoptive) heterosexual parents, there are millions of women who get raped by heterosexual men! There are also a lot of pedophiles around, many of them who are in the position of power (church, school itd.).
But I am sure if a gay couple is molesting a child that is much more interesting for the media and the homophobian public.
“The increased cancer risk due to gay practices is new to me.”
It’s been around in the medical literature for years. Stop keeping your head in the sand like an ostrich.
————————————
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20040501/2149.html
Human Papillomavirus (HPV). The prevalence of HPV infection ranges from 60 to 75 percent in men who have sex with men.18 Anal cancer is thought to arise from the progression of squamous intraepithelial lesions to invasive tumors associated with HPV infection.19 Anal cancer is uncommon; however, it is approximately 80 times more common in homosexual and bisexual men than in the general population. Anal cancer also is somewhat more common in men with HIV infection.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/medconsequences.html
Diseases to which active homosexuals are vulnerable can be classified as follows:
Classical sexually transmitted diseases (gonorrhea, infections with Chlamydia trachomatis, syphilis, herpes simplex infections, genital warts, pubic lice, scabies); enteric diseases (infections with Shigella species, Campylobacter jejuni, Entamoeba histolytica, Giardia lamblia, [“gay bowel disease”], Hepatitis A, B, C, D, and cytomegalovirus); trauma (related to and/or resulting in fecal incontinence, hemorroids, anal fissure, foreign bodies lodged in the rectum, rectosigmoid tears, allergic proctitis, penile edema, chemical sinusitis, inhaled nitrite burns, and sexual assault of the male patient); and the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS). [iv]
———————————
“Also there are millions of children who get abused (physically and mentally) daily by (foster, adoptive) heterosexual parents, there are millions of women who get raped by heterosexual men! There are also a lot of pedophiles around, many of them who are in the position of power (church, school itd.).”
But none of them are demanding a parade for their sexual practices or abuse, are they? And most of the church pedophiles are gay preying on male children and teens and consorting with other gay priests and monks.
Ida, your logic continues to amaze me.
First of all, there’s more to being gay than just anal sex. Also, if you choose not to pick just pieces of scientific information that fit your narrow-minded agenda, you could see the bigger picture. Your list of diseases is a regular list of STDs which are a threat to anyone who is sexually active, regardless of sex or sexual orientation, especially people who do not use protection or have multiple partners. Anal sex does increase RISK of anal cancer, in BOTH men and women, (so does smoking, HIV and many other factors). Again in this case, being in a monogamous relationship and using protection decreases it.
Second, cancer is not contagious and can not be used as grounds for discrimination. People with cancer are not automatically bad parents.
Bad /abusive/ violent parents should be reprimanded or legally sanctioned if necessary, regardless of sexual orientation. Your one hear-say example is not exactly proof of anything. There are numerous studies of children with homosexual parents (either biological or adoptive) which show that these children are not more prone to psychological/ gender / sexuality problems than those with straight parents. In fact most problems gay people or their children may encounter come from fanatical traditionalists who are straight.
Off course there are gay people who are crazy or violent or abusive, but not in a greater percentage then in the entire human population. These are exceptions not a rule, and it is not what gay people want to celebrate in parades. The American Psychiatric Association, after decades of research concluded in 1974 that “homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities”, so all the problems you mention are of a human not homosexual nature.
Marko, thank you for your comment. I fully agree with you! You have written everything what there is to say about this subject.
Just thought I should add that this topic is in the news in Russia at the moment with a parade being attacked by skinheads / and / or nazis in Moscow. The police of course, did nothing and according to some reports even joined in beating and arresting participants of the parade.
Bganon, i just looked that up in the news, it seems as if the state or the city actually banned the parade from happening and that they arrested some of the organizers. Not very clever behaviour of Russian authorities, I’d say. The Right Said Fred singer sums it up best i think:
“When it was over I actually felt more sorry for the guy that whacked me than I did for me… How threatened can he be, how insecure is he to be threatened by a bisexual pop singer who’s most famous for singing ‘I’m too sexy’?”
read more here
On the subject, I see no link between homosexuals and incest here – incest is forbidden of apparent reasons as well as paedophilia and polygamy, for example. I see no point in discussing it really, plus Marko already said everything there is to it.
NYC Guy, it’s a bit of both – the police don’t care too much and they are afraid too. I’d say that the education department in the police forces is to blame for this.
Beppe, I can’t be so sure as to do a nationall wide poll or something. But, being that i teach at a foreign language school here, i can from time to time, get to know some attitudes of my students because there are couple of questions in the book concerning homosexuality. I can surely say that about 80 percent of my students are against homosexuals. To make the matters even worse, nearly all of my students are from the field of medicine – doctors, nurses etc. Go figure.
The parade in Berlin may be a hedonist event now, but the original ones were purely protests, and that is the case now in all countries with significant amount of homophobes – the parades are purely protests. I think that the name itself – ‘parade’ – automatically makes people think of fun, games and orgies, though, maybe that’s the part of the problem (as awkward as it may sound, it seems as if most people don’t like fun, games and orgies).
Marko, Viktor,
dont get me wrong, i do not support incest, but i am trying to bring it in parallel to gay marriges. you say incest should be forbidden because of the high risk that the child will be retarded, as a result of that relationship.Should we then ban all of the women above the age of 40 to have children, because they also carry that high risk. How about people with genetic diseases, eg, epliepsy, asthma, … should these people be banned from having children?
What I am askign is for some explanations, as to why is a gay marrige more normal than an adult incest marrige? How is it more moral? Viktor you touched on the subject of polygamy? what are those obvious reasons that polygamy should be banned. According to islam, polygamy is a moral deed, if not even prefered. Where is it written that “love” can exist only between two people. why cant four people love each other as strong as tow people? And regarding the retarded children excuse, well in polygamy they give birth to heatlhy children.
My point is, not that i support the idea of incest, or polygamy, it is where do we draw the line. Why can now gays marry and incest and polygamists can not have the same right? And please do not use the excuse of retarded children, because that can be passed on heterosexuals as well.
Ivan,
concerning polygamy, it’s legal mumbo jumbo that prevents legalization in our western culture: marriage insititution follows certain culturological models – in one culture we have monogamous model and in other polygamous model, together with all the consenquences, which are very important and very big – inheritance law, childrens rights law, child support, ex spouse support, possesions, and other legal stuff i do not know the proper english terms for (i hope i got these right too…)
In western civilization marriage is designed for two people – in order to legalize polygamy we have to change and rebuild the entire law. In order to legalize homosexual marriages we have to change a couple of words and that’s that.
Incest: we have legal mumbo jumbo again as with the polygamy, plus the significately increased chance of having children with problems – i have to use that argument because it’s the important one – plus in Serbian law for example, the only incest punishable by law is the one where one of the actors is a minor. The law says nothing if relatives are both adults – still you wont find many incest marriages because in the case of incest the line draws itself i guess, of still unknown reasons.
As with all taboos, which is what incest is, it is rooted in the economic and social survival and advancement of the species or even just a specific cultural group. Just as the reason for the taboo on eating pork in Jewish and Muslim cultures is nothing to do with it being unclean, but everything to do with the economic devastation that raising pigs would bring on a people who live in the middle east — pigs don’t sweat and they would die in that climate — and the same with not eating beef in India — the cowpats were more necessary to be used as heating fuel than the meat was for nourishment. How incest would have impacted human society and stopped it developing or progressing is, I believe, self-evident. It’s a taboo. It has very little to do with children of such unions being at risk, although intermarriage in small circles does bring out more negative genetic traits — you only have to look at European royal families to see that. But an occasional child resulting from incest is not in much danger of having something wrong with it. The reason adult people stop themselves participating in incest is that they know the taboo — taboos are very powerful. When an adult iinvolves a child in incest it crosses more lines than the incest taboo. It abuses the child.
And it’s very possible that the taboo on gay relationships that everyone seems to be working so hard to eliminate now was also based on similar survival reasons. After all, without judging anyone, it cannot be denied that homosexuality is an aberration. Look up the word, it’s not a condemnation. Nowadays people who resent the gay movement probably do so because they are getting an aberration shoved at them as something de rigeur and modern, and practically being made to feel second rate if they aren’t gay. At least, it is certainly like that in places like San Francisco and London, both cities that I am very familiar with. It’s in all the newspapers, in TV commercials, on the streets, in magazines, on radio and TV talk shows — and all the while the traditional heterosexual male is being denigrated and portrayed as a stupid caveman. Why wouldn’t there be opposition in some people? Every wave that goes too far gets a backlash.
Once again, Ivan, there’s a lot of ground to cover between where we are now and gay marriages and adoptions. How about some more general acceptance, and for a start the same rights and obligations that unmarried heterosexual couples have. I think, Blackbird, the heterosexual world is still in no real danger of feeling less worthy, even in San Francisco.
This is my absolute last comment in this discussion. I’ve said all that I rationally had to say, and I’m quite tired of the whole thing especially discussing incest and stuff. The topic was acceptance of homosexual people in society and it should be viewed only in the context of society and homosexuals in it. What would it bring, how would it effect society? Gay people already exist and will continue to be a minority; there will be no sharp decrease or increase in the population; the straight community practically wouldn’t feel any change. So, if by a few simple acts you can make a significant number of people happier without causing any real harm (moral outrage is not real harm, you’ll get over it) to others, why not do it?
Marko,
nice one for writing so clearly and putting your point across concisely; not just A for effort but A+ for patience you obviously have to exercise when responding to the likes of Ida and whatshisface who doesn’t ‘mind gays BUT!’
Of course homosexual men and women should have the right to live in peace. Many of them are in long-term, monogamous relationships and are perfectly capable of raising children. Sexuality and sexual practices are two separate issues. I’m amazed at the number of people who seem to attribute all things debauched, even criminal to gay men (to a lesser extent women); as if by being gay you’re automatically likely to be a pervert. What a load of crap!
Having said that, if being born heterosexual in Serbia means that when it comes to sex you just lie on your back, close your eyes and hope it’s over quickly, then I know what I’d prefer any day.
Oh and it sounds like Ida may want to indulge in a spot of anal play… who knows – it may even loosen her up a bit (see what I did there?)
I think we should leave “anal play” to those who enjoy it, like you, evidently, and not try to force it on those who don’t – that would be a kind of harassment, don’t you think? And I’m certain you would not stand for harassment. It makes me wonder, though,…do you also eat through your ears?
And why shouldn’t people eat through their ears? I say stop all discrimination against those who eat through their ears! Just don’t force anybody who eats with his mouth to eat through his ears, OK?
(See what I did there…?)
hey blackbird,
go buy a brain and re-read what i wrote. you bore me with your half-arsed arguments and misunderstandings you thick twat. SEE WHAT I DID THERE?
You did sweet FA — that’s what YOU did.
I have many friends gays (ans some of them have children which did not became gay…!!!!) so, I don’t know why they cannot have the same rights like other people. OK, for churches (Orthodox AND Catholic) its bad. But for churches and religions, even sex before mariage is bad hihihi ;o)..! and everyone is doing it hihihi…! I think that people has to be much more tolerant… Serbia is not so bad… homophobia exists everywhere… I think that the people is affraid of things that they don’t understand… that’s all… maybe some day it will be different?
This post was so funny, if you told me it was written by a professional comedy writer i would believe it. Is it?
Are you calling me a comedian? Huh? HUH?
Yep, this stuff is brilliant. And i don’t mean just this post of course. I’m really glad i found this blog.
Nice to come back here and be reminded what a lot we’re missing since Blackbird flew the nest. Viktor, I’m sorry, as a comedian you’re just not in the same league as Blackbird.
Haha awesome post XD
hahhaa. albania has no gays at all, or very few. 1 in a million may be. serbia on the other hand is fucked up country. and the author that wrote this report in this page is very biased and its obvious that he is pissed of that his country,serbia, has a lot of gays. fuck serbian gays and rats.
Ok, some clarification is in order. In Bible (the old testament) it is clearly written that man should not lay with another man like with a woman (this is blunt translation from serbian). So that has to be a church stand on the matter. There is no going around it. If you believe that Bible is a word of God, than you must believe that God dislikes gay people.
Church is also against violence. Violence is acceptable only to protect others, and even then as a last resort.
Gay prosecution has never bin a part of orthodox church policy. It became part of catholic church policy with Thomas of Aquino.
Church stand is that everything is allowed but everything is not good for you. Gay people can’t be a part of church community but will not be prosecuted for their sexual choices.
However, state had it’s moments on gay prosecution. Have you ever wonder why Tozovac (folk singer) suddenly disappeared from media in the 80′s. Also police was arresting gays as deviants.
That is changed now.
Gay community now has a problem with strong antigay movement personified in football fans and their supporters, not the church or the state. Church will never change its opinion on gays (Bible issue from beginning) and state doesn’t really care (it doesn’t care about non gay citizens either) so you will just have to deal with it and hope for better days.
I’m an orthodox christian and as such i am against homosexual orientation but, as mentioned above, personal freedom is imperative.
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