Before I begin, just a quick not that I have heard of three separate cases where foreigners have been attacked in Belgrade and beaten up in the last three days, including one Frenchmen that’s in critical condition. It seems that the groups of ultra-right fascists are patrolling the city center targeting those that seem unusual or different to them. So be careful.
The organizers of the Belgrade gay parade that was supposed to be held tomorrow in front of Student Square have earlier today informed the press about the cancellation of the event. The reason for this is that the police admitted that they will not be able to protect the participants, practically forcing the organizers to give up. The cancellation was one of the two scenarios – the other one was rioting in the street with a lot of people getting hurt and arrested. The third, imaginary scenario, that everything was going to be just fine, was never an option, not in this country. Why is that the case? I’ll try to explain, as I’m trying to explain to myself.
photo by iboy_daniel
Serbia is one of the countries with the biggest number of war-traumatized people in Europe right now. You don’t think about this much, but consider this – all the people involved in all the wars during the nineties – soldiers, policemen, paramilitary, volunteers – tens of thousands of them had returned to Serbia after the war – traumatized – and transferred their traumas to their friends, relatives, acquaintances and so on – there’s not a single person in Serbia that hasn’t heard of a war story directly from someone who was in the war itself, even those that were born after all the wars. And that also leaves lasting traumas. Because of the war trauma, the biggest trauma of all, all the other things seem less significant, and, paradoxically, makes the people less compassionate to other people’s suffering. You have problems because you’re gay in Serbia? Well, tough titty, because that’s nothing comparing to people dying – in a war! Live with it! Nobody is going to help you – not even those whose job is to protect you.
So the parade will have to wait. For how long? Who knows. How long does it take for the war trauma to disappear? One thing that worries though is that the police actually admites the ultra right organizations and well-organized hooligans are stronger than them. This is why the Ministry of Interior has just decided that all public gatherings in the city center are now banned indefinitely starting from tonight. How good this ban will do is to be seen.
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“You have problems because you’re gay in Serbia? Well, tough titty, because that’s nothing comparing to people dying – in a war”
Not convinced this is the whole story: gay pride went ahead peacefully in June in Croatia; ten were injured in demonstrations in Bosnia last september, which had an Islamic flavour. In war-free non-muslim Hungary, there were more injuries than that, and a massive police presence this year suppressed opposition to the event.
Are you telling that war trauma makes us all insignificant? Just because some male people voted for some male people and started few really macho wars without knowing how to end them, thats should concern all of us?
I am sick & tired of politics thats is always centered around nationality and so called “national pride”.
In Serbian Government I see only ppl from villages eager to get money and hooks before they become totally sexually indifferent.
It is better this way.
I dont care who has sex with whom. I don’t care what you’re doing behind closed doors. I am a girl and I am not marching half naked with my boyfriend just because we have sex. Everybody have sex and i don’t care how as long as i don’t have to watch any kind of manifestation. If they have rights, so have everybody else, no matter what kind of opinion is that. if somebody says YES and we must hear it (although we don’t CARE) so we must hear whoever says NO, because that’s democracy. My best friend is gay and pretty normal guy and he didn’t even consider going to that parade. That tells me enough about organizers and participants.
Startoucher, you appear to have completely missed Viktor’s point. People being threatened and beaten up is not something going on “behind closed doors”. You’re quite right, human rights are indivisible, but you don’t appear to understand what that idea actually means.
Startoucher, I can’t believe you actually used the clichéd and almost mythical “my best friend is gay” defense. You honestly think that the gays and lesbians of Serbia are going to hold a Pride parade like the ones that are held in the States? What, do you think (or hope) they have a death wish?
I’m not surprised you don’t understand what the parade is about. It’s not about flaunting their gayness, or trying to make straights uncomfortable. It’s about standing up with each other in solidarity. It’s about making themselves seen and heard by a population that would otherwise stamp their faces into the concrete, which you apparently have no problem with, gay best friend or not. It’s about letting other gays know that they exist and deserve to have the rights and freedoms that other straight people so openly throw in their faces, especially along the streets and in the parks of Belgrade.
I bet your “gay best friend” doesn’t know the deep-seated bigotry you hold in your heart against him. Were he to find out, I don’t think you’d be friends for very much longer.
can you explain me the importance of gay parade.if its so important why didnt you do it somewhere where police can protect you.i am not sure but i think that you were offered location where it would be possible to do it.anyway you want to be accepted on one side (which obviously wouldnt happen) then u want to force it with police protection(you still wouldnt be accepted) so why doing it in such a way?.maybee is too early for country like serbia for such a thing(maybee never) but if you want to be accepted and go freely than you have to deserve that(police protection will not help you in that).finding the way to do it without forcing legaly people to accept you is the only way because u cant expect police protection 24/7.anyway back to my original question:expalin me the point and importance of gay parada please?
Viktor, good point about the war traumas affecting us all (and first couple of comments: you have 0 critical reading skills). In all honesty, I never really gave it much thought.
Anyway, there are a couple of things to be mentioned for commentors up there:
1. Girlfriends and boyfriends can walk down the street holding hands. Same-sex couples can’t.
2. LGBT wants to “parade” because they feel their rights are being infringed upon.
Startoucher, would you make the same comparison for, say, people who are disabled? Would you ever write something as: “Why should those people in wheelchair demonstrate when I have flu every year and I don’t take it to the streets?”
Ninja, you are unusally dumb. Really, you should be put into a small room with an even smaller window and someone knowledgable should observe you.
Why don’t you go write comments at a place where a moderator can protect you from such insults?
There is a thing called “human rights” which one has and doesn’t need to deserve them. One of them is to be gay and anywhere you like. It doesn’t really roll that you can be gay in New Belgrade, but not Savski Venac or Stari Grad, does it?
Dejan,
”(and first couple of comments: you have 0 critical reading skills)”
Would you like to justify that remark, or are you happy just to insult people?
Sophis, sorry, “couple” was not two in this case. Still, your argument is fallacious because traumas are anything but universal and one’s grave experience is another’s walk in the park. I can’t go into justifying Viktor’s argument because, like I mentioned, I never gave it much thought and I’m not really educated on the subject, but life proves that he has a valid point there.
Anywho, yesterday was Thursday, and I take particular pleasure in insulting homophobes on Thursdays.
It’s no good having these gay parades if they are going to cause such problems and tension build up. It only leads to more bashing of Serbs and Serbia. (Serb haters (Albanians, for instance) have been abusing Serbs for many weeks about the up-coming gay parade and now Serbs are abusing them for intolerance. Anything which gets a lot of media attention about the Serbs is a magnet for hate speech about them.)
These “gay parades” are not a grassroots thing for Serbia – but an imported, imposed, pressured copy-cat idea. Many of the marchers were going to be foreigners too.
What’s telling is those promoting this and these kinds of things ignore the suffering of non-gay refugees and homeless from the war – or the severe deprivation of the most basic human rights – such as the rights to freedom of movement or not to have your possessions stolen all the time with impunity (cattle, for instance) because you are of Serb ethnicity. There are many more displaced and refugee Serb than there are gays – and gays are free to live as anyone else – it’s basically they can’t do the very noticeable public displays of affection which calls attention, and which would be a luxury for people like the Serbs who can’t even work their lands to earn a living in certain areas of Kosovo.
Who said human rights should be the EXTRA right of holding a parade to flaunt your lifestyle choice? Parades should be celebratory things and make people (especially children) happy or be a fun or especially interesting spectacle to watch.
I don’t think there is anything wrong in general with gays – but they shouldn’t be doing the “in-your-face” things and disrespecting others beliefs – especially when there is too much tension and troubles in Serbia at this time.
There are probably other ways than total copycat “gay parade” to stop any discrimination against them. There can be dialog, meetings, talk shows and discussions and about general respect to all people. Gays are often talented and creative and they could have shows and exhibitions of their art and stuff – but it should not be about advertising their lifestyle and pushing that. I think non-pushy ways and things which aren’t being pushed or promoted by the same western “humanitarians” and busybodies which either have been anti-Serb on other issues or ignore the stomping on Serb rights everywhere else.
“and now Serbs are abusing them for intolerance”
Should be: “and now Serbs are being abused for intolerance”
Ida’s rant just begs to declare Fridays homophobe-bashing days as well…
A: not having a freedom to walk the streets is a THE biggest violation of one’s personal liberties. Gay people in Serbia can walk the streets as long as nobody knows they are gay. Once somebody figures out they are LGBT, they are in danger of being beaten up. So, no freedom.
B: just because polar bears are endangered doesn’t mean we should encourage ivory trade, does it? Gay people SHOULD NOT refrain from fighting for their rights because somebody else’s rights are infringed upon. You know what, try being a gay Serb in Kosovo for a day.
C: Let’s give basic logic a try, shall we?
PREMISE: A significant percentage of humans, regardless of their nationality and location, are homosexuals.
PREMISE: Serbs are humans.
CONCLUSION: A significant percentage of Serbs are homosexuals.
PREMISE: Humans are allowed to hold public gatherings.
PREMISE: Serbs are allowed to be human
PREMISE: Humans are allowed to hold public gatherings.
PREMISE: Serbs are allowed, by Constitution, to be human
PREMISE: Some Serbs are homosexuals.
CONCLUSION: Homosexual Serbs are allowed to hold public gatherings.
Ida: even a smaller room, even a smaller window, for you!
PREMISE: A significant percentage of humans, regardless of their nationality and location, are homosexuals.
[A very small percentage compared to the percentage of people who are Serbs in Serbia.]
PREMISE: Serbs are humans.
[Not according to the western liberals and those who set up war on Serbia and ignore or even promote abuse on Serbs – stand by while Serbs were kidnapped and killed, stand by while they were shot and let to bleed out, allow Albanians to plant bombs which blow up Serbs when they crossed into Kosovo, allow the terrorist who did this his freedom. (He is free today.]
CONCLUSION: A significant percentage of Serbs are homosexuals.
[What percent is this? And what percent of that even want a gay parade?]
PREMISE: Humans are allowed to hold public gatherings.
[The Serbian government is talking about stopping certain groups from gatherings if it doesn’t approve.]
PREMISE: Serbs are allowed to be human
[Not in Croatia where they are treated worse than animals. Not in Muslim-Croat Federation of Bosnia. Not in Kosovo and many other places. They aren’t given basic rights.]
PREMISE: Humans are allowed to hold public gatherings.
[Not Serbs in Muslim or Croat parts of Balkans. Did you not read how the Kosovo Albanian police turned Serbs back from visiting their monuments?]
PREMISE: Serbs are allowed, by Constitution, to be human
[But in practice, despite Constitution, Serbs aren’t allowed and the international community silently approves.]
PREMISE: Some Serbs are homosexuals.
[But they aren’t the ones wanting this parade. It is all foreign-generated stunt.]
CONCLUSION: Homosexual Serbs are allowed to hold public gatherings.
[Homosexual Serbs aren’t behind this. It is foreigners pushing a foreign gay parade tradition and wanting to annoy the majority Serbs with it.]
Dejan,
“your argument is fallacious because traumas are anything but universal and one’s grave experience is another’s walk in the park”
Viktor’s argument seemed to be if the parade had gone ahead, their would have been “rioting in the street with a lot of people getting hurt and arrested”. Which I don’t dispute, but then he put forward the explanation that this is because of the high number of war traumitised Serbs who have no sympathy for homosexuals.
Against this explanation, I didn’t so much make an argument, as put forward a list of counter-examples. The most straightforward one is Croatia. Croatia was also involved in the Yugoslav wars, the Gay Pride march there is now peaceful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreb_Pride
Which raises the question why has Croatia been able to recover from the “homophobic” consequences of the Yugoslav wars faster than Serbia?
You remark “traumas are anything but universal” suggests that Serbia’s response was different to Croatia’s. But if you look at the rhetoric used in violent opposition to the first Zagreb Pride ” Go to Serbia”, “Kill the Serb”, “Fags to concentration camps”, “Heil Hitler”, “Sieg heil”, “Die”, and “We are Aryan”. You get the same link that Viktor made between the Yugoslav wars, zenophobia and homophobia. It seems the difference doesn’t lie there. So what is it?
Ida,
Why do you always go on about Serb refugees. This is not about them. This is about LGBT Serbs in Serbia, nothing else. And by the way, there are no more or no less LGBT Serbs than LGBT Brits, French, Americans, Canadians etc etc.
The parade was organised by local Serbs. They wanted to do it and received support by the international community. I don’t think the internantional community came in and said now you will have a parade because we said so.
Also, many LGBT don’t feel safe coming out so of course they weren’t going to the parade, but they exist – there are at least 700,000 LGB people in Serbia, if not more, and that includes Serbian refugees and Serbs in Kosovo. A SIGNIFICANT minority who should not be persecuted or feel unsafe.
LGBT people are not simply discriminated in the sense that they can’t kiss their partner in the park or walk hand in hand – it is on so many other levels: housing, having to hide their partners from friends and family, work colleagues, not being able to speak freely about who they have been in love with for the last 1, 2 3, or 20 years! Something that surely can destroy the soul.
They just want to feel safe and not have to hide anymore. Why is that so hard to accept?
Oh and Ida:
“I don’t think there is anything wrong in general with gays – but they shouldn’t be doing the “in-your-face” things and disrespecting others beliefs – especially when there is too much tension and troubles in Serbia at this time.”
Replace gays with black people and Serbia with USA.
Are you telling me that black people should have just remained quiet and not cause a fuss instead of marching for their rights?
The parade was not going to be a naked dance about the street, it was a political protest intented to highlight discrimination of a large section of society.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1lu8jnjV0
A gay man heartlessly bombed Serbia:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/idahonews/story/913701.html
Gay Air Force officer outed by false accusation
“Air Force Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach…2,180 hours of flight time, including patrolling Washington, D.C., after 9/11; and 400 hours in combat over Iraq, Afghanistan and Kosovo…”
I have enjoyed this blog, and am learning a lot through this discussion. I’m a social worker from the US, here with my husband, and arrived just before the lgbt parade fiasco. I’ve ad a lot to learn!
Ida, I’d just like to point out that the the fact the airforce colonel was gay had nothing to do with his participation in Kosovo, or whether or not he bombed Serbia… many gay, straight, and otherwise identifiable men and women participated in those campaigns.
What’s you point, Ida? You’re really clinging to straws.
Lot’s of straight men bombed Serbia, too. Shouldn’t they be denied the right to peaceful assembly as well then?
Being gay is not all that someone is, it’s simply one part of a person’s overal being.
Ida, could you give me some guidance about Milan Lukic’s sexual orientation?
Brice Taton, the French football fan who was attacked, died this morning (Tuesday) at 10 am.
well i did ask what was the point of gay parade because all gay parades in western europe are drugs and alcohol fuelled sex parties.yea kind of parties where gay people walk around drunk using drugs and have sex in public places.if that is kind of thing you want well good luck then and prepare to spend your life in room with small window dejan.in western europe gay people are still discriminated and the only thing that stops people from publicly humiliate them and beat them up is so called law.to make this clear THEY ARE NOT ACCEPTED.the only thing that stops people from abusing them is fear of prosecution not their tolerance for gay people.if you really want to be accepted i suggest you to organise your parades in proper places(vatican,mecca,tibet,hilandar) if you organise parade there then making parade in belgrade or moscow or beijing will be a piece of cake.for DEJAN i really feel sorry for you because you cant accept what you are .maybee when you accept that you will find it easier to live with yourself.until then stay in your hole and cry without doing anything else but insulting people here and waiting that someone else does your job so you can have so called freedom.if this really bothers you this much in 21 first century why dont you do what harvey milk did in 1960is.be brave.:)and see what gay parade have become since his time
Ninja, a few things:
1) Try to use punctuation and capitalization while writing. It will make your nonsense a bit less unreadable.
2) Who are you to talk in the name of Western Europe?
3) Do you ever stop to think how … well, do you ever think? I mean, the thing, between your ears, found a use for it yet? Give it a go, see what happens. Read a book, watch a play, try to do ANYTHING that might get your nerve impulses to your brain going.
4) Why do you assume I’m gay?
5) Thanks to this “so called law” people don’t snatch your man-purse from you daily. Unfair to thieves, but useful to the rest of us.
Our politicians are idiots and there should be hanged on the wall of shame. I heard from my friend who works in the government that some politicians payed hooligans to bit up people on gay parade. And not to mention that they didn’t want to guarantee safety of participants.
WAR IS OVER OK , so start moving forward and accepting people for whom they are, we had enough war experience for next two centuries . I live in Serbia and i am sick of this kinds of things, lot of people who live here feel this way too.
In moments like this, I ask myself “What would Nick Slaughter think”.
Milena,
Nothing is going to change until you and the other people who are sick and tired of all the hate and fear stand with the people who are trying to work against it.
In fact, it goes for Serbia as a whole. The main hurdle that Serbia faces is the hate and fear the politicians use against the populace to turn them against each other.
Ninja,
If you love Russia so much, move there.
DEJAN
I think I love you. Really. Rarely do I read comments on blogs that I find:
(1) amusing
(2) measured and intelligent
(3) demonstrative of the fact that people who can think for themselves do exist
You should be congratulated for actually managing to get through the slab of nonsensical ravings by Ninja…I think you will find that Ninja already exists in a very very small room, and it is highly questionable that there is a window. However he clearly does not have anyone to monitor him – the poor little man.
Unfortunately though, it is because of people like Ninja (or worse yet, Ida who appears to have some level of brain function beyond that necessary to sustain life, yet somehow manages to spout ignorat off topic gibberish) that basic human dignities are denied to so many.
An image of the apocalypse would perhaps be akin to Ida and Ninja falling in love, reproducing and being allowed to raise the child themselves. It almost makes you think favorably of the days of eugenics sterilization programs.