Construction works in Balkanska street, Belgrade.
Goran Miletic made a good list over at B92 blog – Fifty human rights tasks that new government should do. Some of the tasks are pretty easy to do and don’t require much effort, only good will, while other require both effort, will and the money. I could have made fifty posts about this and yap about it in the next two months but I figure it’s more efficient to have them here in one spot.
So here we go, I’ve added some of my thoughts under each task.
1. Adopt an anti-discrimination law
The law is prepared several years ago, all there is to it is to adopt it in the parliament. It seems as a pretty obvious law to have.
2. Use the national television to inform the public about the crimes committed by the Serbian forces in the nineties wars
This is also a taboo subject in Serbia, probably because the state refuses to start up a debate. Using a national frequency would seem like a natural thing to do, but so far this subject has been neglected in the state media.
3. Arrest the people charged with war crimes and send them to Hague tribunal
No explanation necessary here I guess.
4. Make and adopt a free legal help law
Most European countries have this law, Serbia should have it too.
5. Explain to the citizens why those sitting in the Hague tribunal are there and why those who are sentenced are in prison
Using a national frequency would seem like a logical option here too.
6. Find and arrest those responsible for the attacks and murders of journalists
That is easier said than done, but the problem is that we get almost no info on how the procedure of finding the responsible ones is developing. Read more about the latest attack on journalists here.
7. Elect an Ombudsman
The ombudsman law is prepared in 2005, but hasn’t been adopted yet. What the hell is an ombudsman? It’s a Scandinavian invention, just like cheese knife. Read here.
8. Ratify the 136 conventions in Council of Europe that haven’t been signed yet
Since I hate the bureaucracy I can’t tell if this one is easy or hard thing to do, because Europe is fairly bureaucratic state – you have to sign something all the time really.
9. Answer all the questions asked under the Free access to information law which haven’t been answered yet by the previous government
This is an extremely important issue, because I guess people are sick and tired of things being pushed under the carpet all the time. Even the Supreme court issued a decision that the State security must answer certain questions about eavesdropping on some people they found suspicious.
10. European Social Charter has been signed in 2005 but it hasn’t been ratified yet
Bureaucracy again, this time it’s only one thing, so it’s got to be simple I suppose.
11. Empower the Council for fighting corruption
I love that made up word empower really – I hope it’s the right translation for this kind of thing. What it basically means is that the body in charge of fighting corruption should have more support by the government and not be ignored by it.
12. LGBT community members are also citizens of Serbia and the violence directed at them happens most often. Invest more effort into stopping possible discrimination and into investigating the cases of violence and discrimination that took place already
This is pretty self-explanatory – the police have to react more professionally in these cases.
13. The Internal affairs has been founded in the Police sector, and it has to be backed by the government to be independent in order to protect the citizens from corrupted police officers and those that violate the code of conduct
14. Make the section for receiving complains against police officers who misuse their position work better
15. Ratify the European Charter on local Self-Government, which has been signed in 2005
16. Include human rights and tolerance educational elements into current teachers curricula
To educate children about those things seem like a natural thing to do, specially in a country witch holds an emphasis on wars and battles in history.
17. Adopt a law on NGOs
Being that Serbia is no longer the biggest non governmental organization in the world, since we got the government, it would be nice to have the law for those smaller ones.
18. Condemn and protest against hate speech at every occasion
So far the protests coming from previous officials have been pretty shy – this gives inspiration and encourages those who practice hate speech.
19. Start saying that there are Albanians living in Kosovo as well as the Serbs and other minorities
This has also been mentioned very rarely by the officials – if we are going to keep Kosovo, we have to think about others living there besides Serbs.
20. Start solving housing issues
This concerns especially Roma people and it is a difficult task because it requires education and will to incorporate Roma into society, but also education of the others – latest issue involved a group of people protesting when they found out their neighbors will be Roma and stopping the contract from being made.
21. European convention of human rights – encourage and promote it
22. Solve the Topcider case and other soldier deaths that remained unsolved
23. Don’t delay the state reports about application of international conventions
24. Encourage the involvement of minorities in local governments
25. Implement the decision made by the Committee against torture, Committee against racial discrimination and Human rights committee in cases where the state of Serbia was found guilty
Several such decisions are still on hold.
26. Made the police act according to its standards when it comes in respecting human rights
The police can be very unprofessional in common situations – if they decide to check my ID based on my “suspicious” looks that’s fine by me but than they have to act as true professionals.
27. Solve the cases of torture committed by the police in Sandzak in the beginning of nineties
Goran says that charges have been filed long time ago and that there are evidence for this torture but that the court process is on standby for unknown reasons.
28. Clarify officially the case of bombing the RTS building during NATO bombing and the Grmec case and tell the public the truth
The bombing of Radio-Television of Serbia building is basically solved, but not officially, but the Grmec case is practically unknown, even in Serbia – you can read more about it here in an article by Dejan Anastasijevic.
29. Improve the status of persons with disabilities. The law exist, but it is not implemented fully
Belgrade is, for example, still pretty difficult to move about for persons in wheelchairs, as well as some public institutions, schools and faculties.
30. Let public know all the details of the recent death of a citizen proclaimed to be a Wahhabi
The case has been made a national security secret and hasn’t been discussed ever since. The less secrets the state has the better.
31. Increase awareness about the international humanitarian laws among the members of the military
We should learn some lessons from the previous wars that were full of war crimes and crimes against humanity – not to allow for such things to happen again.
32. Start implementing the lustration law
Highly necessary in all the countries with political background like ours, ie communist rule. But very hard to implement. Maybe we could learn something from Poland and their implementation of this law, together with the mistakes they made?
33. Adopt a law about the gender equality
More equality means less discrimination means less stress means more productivity means better state. The Democratic party already made a proposition of this law, all they have to do it is to adopt it now.
34. Explain the decision of the international court of justice in the case Bosnia vs. Serbia to the citizens of Serbia
It appears that the government explained this decision as some kind of victory for Serbia so far. But it’s not.
35. Bring back the TV program in minorities’ languages on the state/national TV channels
Lacking in central Serbia.
36. Allow the citizens with UNMIK papers only to enter Serbia
Allowing freedom of movement through the whole territory of the state is necessary. It’s either that or Kosovo is independent. Which it officially isn’t.
37. Condemn the attack on small religious groups and find the attackers
As you can conclude yourself, the reactions coming from the previous governments on all kinds of human rights violations were very shy – this has to change once. Not to condemn or to condemn mildly actually only increases the chances of these violations happening again.
38. Test the behavior and the conduct of the police and customs officers at the borders
This is to fight corruption and extortion attempts.
39. Be present at the trials for the crimes committed at Zvornik, Suva Reka etc and meet the families of the victims
The government must show good will in solving these cases and this is one of ways to get involved, to show the human side and compassion of the state officials.
40. Visit Roma slums, stay there for a couple of hours and ask the people living there about everyday life
This must be done also and particularly after the election campaign is over.
41. Allow for Radio Television of Serbia to truly become the public service
The behavior of the general manager could be classified under abuse of power.
42. Make an asylum law
We are the last country in the region without one. No reason not to have one, several reasons to have one.
43. Treat conscientious objection as the basic human right
Not as a trend coming from the west.
44. Arrest skinheads who threaten and attack minorities, peace activists etc
Latest such attacks – here and here.
45. Support the organization of a gay pride march one of the following years
The article on the blog and the discussion explains why this is necessary.
46. Make the police start communicating with the citizens more clearly
Too much abbreviations and secrets – too much bureaucracy on purpose – no need for that really.
47. Make the state security secret personal records and files publicly available
They will become available sooner or later anyways. Why not sooner?
48. Draw and adopt a law that will make possible for Roma to get the ID card at a special procedure
If we must have an ID, than lets make it easy to obtain one for the first time.
49. Visit the persons with AIDS
Even a symbolic gesture can mean a lot.
50. Make a law that would protect the national minorities
The old law is out of function now and besides, it was outdated.
The tasks are universal when you look at them – it’s what every government in the world should do in order to make the country better place to live in. You can add more suggestions in the comments.
{ 33 comments… read them below or add one }
Not big deal…..
kovovo’s albanians need 100 tasks to obtain and yet they will get a state in reward…..
Viktore, prepare for a longer one:
An anti-discrimination law is something that must be adopted in order to create a good functioning society. But regarding 12, LGBT rights, they should be included in the law, and not on a special act. However, I agree that the police has to learn to behave professionaly and objectively in any situation.
Explaining the issue of the decision of the International Court of Law (34) is a tricky issue. Of course, everybody is a loser in this story, however, few days after the decision, one German jurist, who served for a long time in this Court of Law said that the fact that Serbia is responsible for not preventing the genocide is a case-specific issue. If we consider how many countries had the info that the maasecre would take place, Serbia would surely not be lonely in this issue and that would be proven if a process in front of the Court would be organized for each of the countries. I agree with him on this.
When it comes to the Housing issues, this should cover all of the endangered groups without difference, not to make priorities on an ethnic basis. I know first-hand that the Roma are in a horible condition, but there are also many non-Roma families (mostly refugees) that live in similar conditions and the state should handle each and everyone of them equaly, not only in housing issues. Do we want a state of equality, or a state of positive/negative discrimination?
(16) Human rights education is included in the civil education that we have since 2001 in our schools.
(36) They are allowed access to Serbia, if they also have Serbian documents. I’m sorry, but I don’t know any state that allowes it’s citizens to circulate through the state without the states documents. If the population of Kosmet doesn’t want to have Serbian documents, then there is a consequence they have to face, since Kosmet is still under the sovereignity of Serbia.
(49) why only AIDS, there are many people that have hard illnesses that need moral support, such as cancer, cerebral paralysses, tumors, etc.
The rest of the tasks are more or less ok.
Its hard to find much to disagree with here but I feel tempted to add to the list or to make my own list up.
On number 40 I would encourage school trips to roma slums – organised in advance of course with an aim, and not like some kind of voyeristic trip to the zoo.
On number 48 kind of reminds me on the ID card. I’d think about creating a debate where ID cards and their effectiveness are discussed. For example the fingerprints of every Serbia citizen with an ID card are kept on record – apart from civil rights issues on this point, how effective are keeping fignerprints of all citizens (in the style of a police state) in solving crime (yeah, dont laugh) And when are the police or prosecution service allowed access? Does anybody even know their rights on this? Should mandatory ID cards be scrapped and what kind of system is more effective?
On the inclusion of Albanians when mentioning Kosovo its true but gyspies / roma must also be mentioned. The government needs to cease looking like it is supporting the rights of the Serb minority and become the champion of all minorities in Kosovo.
On point 35 I’d say bring back English language news as well. If we are to have increasing amounts of tourists in Serbia – which we do, it makes sense to screen an English language news / culture programme.
Number 2 I agree with to some degree although I’d probably prefer a programme that covers all war crimes committed in the former Yugoslavia rather than just ones comitted by the Serb side. I dont think the aim of our national broadcaster should be to avoid the issue but I dont think it would be a good thing to avoid war crimes committed against Serbs either. I’d add that programmes on propoganda should also be commissioned showing many examples from RTS but also from HRT etc. Hell they could even try to make some regional collaboration on such a programme calling people into studios to talk about how they were affected by television news coverage.
There were a few notorious cases when the same pictures (of victims) were used by HRT and RTS to prove that the other side were murderers. These cases should be documented, shown to the public and not forgotten. People (from all backgrounds) need to know that they were manipulated – which if true also shows a need to re-assess their blinded view of what happened in recent history.
Some of these suggestions are pretty sensible, some are rather pointless or idiotic. More to the point, this blog was much better when it was still mostly about how cool Belgrade is, and not a load of political (LDP) смарање. Also, you might want to remove the link to my blog, since I’ve taken it down…
Ditto.
Viktor, keep up your good work, molim te! Your articles are very informative and always “food for thoughts”.
Of course, let’s have all the countries who knew that the Bosnian Serbs were on the point of putting their genocidal plans into effect on trial. That would go some way towards fulfilling the aims of the Genocide Convention, but more than that it would really snatch away the shoddy little fig-leaf that enables the bank-rollers of genocide to pretend that they’re no more responsible than anyone else.
Viktor, thank you for your “self-loathing”, it reminds us that the concepts of “being Serbian” and “having a moral compass” are not incompatible, despite all the best efforts of the apologists for an ex-government employee with case-specific indictment problems.
Owen, I tend to believe more experts on legal issues, than people who are carried from their emotions, believing that they know the best and it shoulod be like this because they feel to.
Stop being a pompous prat, Owen.
There is a huge chasm of difference between recognizing fault in your own people as well as in their enemies, and challenging all those responsible, while calling for bringing them to task….and Viktor’s attitude of looking for fault only in your own people and never mentioning what other people did to THEM and what actually transpired. The former carries a moral compass that is objective and morally neutral and the latter is just as bad (if not worse) as looking only at the faults of others and never at one’s own; it’s just the other side of the same coin.
As for the “genocidal plans” of the (Bosnian) Serbs (or any such in Kosovo), you need to shut up and admit that your only “evidence” is BBC-style propaganda — of which there is a suffocatingly enormous pile — or come up with some new information, not to mention the bodies. You genocide whores apparently will never give up this propaganda as it gives you some kind of imagined moral superiority. The last thing you want is an examination of the facts with charges then brought against the guilty, on all sides, as I have been calling for all along, whereas you genocide whores are content to harp on the Serbs.
I will remind you that it is the Serbs, and only the Serbs, that have taken any responsibilty for anything they did in the Balkan wars, including trying and sentencing Serbs, and in some cases they have taken responsibility for things they didn’t even do, because their hands were tied behind their backs by the likes of that corrupt personage called Paddy Ashdown. What have the Croats or Bosnians owned up to? Hell, why should the Croats admit to their sins from 10 or 20 years ago — they have yet to own up to what they did more than 60 years ago. Now THERE’s a juicy bit of genocide for you, Owen — with bodies and everything.
I may be a pompous prat but I’m a prat who feels his throat rise as I listen to the self-serving indignation of people who moan about being asked to come terms with the real world.
I enjoy reading about life in Belgrade as well as elsewhere in the Balkans and that’s why I like visiting this blog. I don’t think Belgraders are creatures from a different world and I’m interested in how close we are in some things and and how different we are in others.
But from time to time I find it difficult to continue listening to denial of what the outside world understands and accepts – the pretence that each step of the legal process tells us nothing and that someone else is always more culpable. If I run the risk of being condemned as emotional and a “genocide whore” I’m quite happy to take that on the chin. Rather that than have to stifle the disgust I feel after more than a decade of trying to keep an open mind about events that were sometimes happening even as I was told they weren’t or were the opposite of the events described to me.
Feel free to condemn me for my views, but however much you rationalise the outcome of the ICJ I’m afraid that a lot of us out here do accept that the bodies are there and believe we have been told why they are there, based on a lot more evidence than “BBC-style reports”, whatever those may be. Paddy Ashdown would have been corrupt if he’d accepted that intellectually illiterate first RS report on Srebrenica. Blackbird, did you ever read it?
I’ll shut up, I’m sorry I’ve distracted so much attention from some other important matters raised in this very interesting post.
They claim unidentified bodies, and a great number remain unidentified after several years, despite the international community desperately trying to match them to Muslims.
They also have been show to count Muslim soldiers who died in battle or went missing during 1992, 1993, etc. before the fall. Cemeteries of Srebrenica soldiers who died during the war have been redug and bodies transferred for reburial in Potocari with much fanfare.
It appears they are essentially burying most all of their fallen soldiers during the war and battles and trying to claim they were executed and during the fall of Srebrenica.
When over 3,000 names of the missing Srebrenica Muslim turned up on the 1996 OSCE election lists in Tuzla (which was the main destination for Srebrenica Muslims after the fall) the international authorities quickly locked up the lists so they couldn’t be further accessed.
There is no distinguishing between battle deaths, accidents or alleged execution.
Many Srebrenica Muslim men do live in other parts of Bosnia – they relocated. Besides Tuzla many live in Sarajevo.
Also, the U.S. has a good number of them. St. Louis, Missouri has Srebrenica soldiers who’ve been interviewed in books. They state they were ordered by their commanders and the UN to de-man their defensive positions (before the Serbs came) and gather in a village in nothern Srebrenica. From there, and during the night, they left in large shifts. The number of men estimated around 15,000.
Srebrenica Muslim men make the news in the U.S. The gunman who committed the massacre at a Utah mall last February, Suleman Talovic, was the son of a Srebrenica fighter, who is still alive. Further, several of Suleman’s uncles, who hail from the same area, and are thus Srebrenica men, had their say in the news articles about him. He has a large number of uncles, aunts and cousins all living in the U.S.
Another Srebrenica soldier, is in the news for assaulting the boyfriend of his step-daughter with his car. Further, he is wanted for killing another Srebrenica Muslim. He and several armed Muslims were found by the NATO occupation troups in the RS several months AFTER the fall of Srebrenica. Serbs tried them for killing Serb woodcutters, but the international community threw such a stink, they all ended up being released shortly after trial.
But this guy killed another Srebrenica Muslim in August 1995 over an argument about hiding/stealing food. He admitted to the murder and was sentenced by the RS court. Despite his admitting and going into detail about the murder, the international community always complains.
His violent temper and assault display in the U.S. shows some of the same pattern of behavior when he murdered another Bosnian Muslim during the war.
http://calibre.mworld.com/m/m.w?lp=GetStory&id=255252511
Bosnian in U.S. facing extradition claims political exemption
Released : Thursday, May 24, 2007 11:37 AM
SIOUX FALLS, South Dakota-A Bosnian accused by U.S. authorities of being a fugitive should not be extradited to his homeland to serve prison time for a 1995 murder because it happened while he was hiding in a cave to escape the violence of a civil war, his lawyer argued in court documents.
Samir Avdic, 40, was in the Bosnian army and hiding in caves near Srebrenica when he and other soldiers suspected Mustafic Munib of stealing from them, according to a brief filed in U.S. District Court by Avdic’s lawyer, Tim Wilka.
A court in the former Yugoslavia later found Avdic guilty in absentia of shooting Munib in the back of the head with a shotgun. Avdic confessed to killing Munib but later recanted, Wilka wrote.
Avdic was sentenced to 10 years in prison but an appeals court later reduced it to six years after re-evaluating mitigating factors, according to court documents.
Wilka argued that the extradition treaty between the United States and Serbia allows for an exception in Avdic’s case because it was a political offense.
“By peacetime standards, the defendant’s actions against Munib might be recognized as brutal, but during August of 1995 they were acts of a political character and extradition should be denied,” he wrote.
Avdic, suffering from epilepsy, was living in a cave while “thousands of his countrymen, including women and children, were being massacred around him” and then was tortured after he was caught, Wilka wrote.
“Defendant will testify and can prove that during the approximate one year he was imprisoned in Serbia, he was beaten, tortured and starved,” he wrote.
Court proceedings during the time Avdic was convicted have been criticized by some as staged trials that sent innocent people to prison without enough evidence.
But Assistant U.S. Attorney Jeff Clapper, on behalf of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, wrote in a memorandum that the extradition agreement does apply and Avdic should be sent back to serve his sentence.
The facts are not in dispute because Avdic spelled out in detail how he killed Munib, Clapper wrote.
Avdic is in the United States on a temporary visa. He had been living in Sioux Falls with his family and working at the John Morrell & Co. meatpacking plant.
Sioux Falls police arrested him in March after he was accused of using his vehicle to ram into another vehicle carrying his stepdaughter’s boyfriend.
A Minnehaha County grand jury indicted Avdic on assault and reckless driving, but those charges have since been withdrawn because U.S. authorities are holding him under a complaint accusing him of being a fugitive from a foreign country.
A June 5 hearing on that complaint will include testimony about the crime and whether the United States should extradite him to Bosnia.
Clapper argued that such a hearing is not a trial and the judge must rely on written documents and not live witnesses in order to avoid “the requirement for a foreign government to produce witnesses at an extradition hearing in the United States.”
Avdic is being held in the Sioux Falls jail.
Cvijus, these points you listed focus on discrimination: towards gay people, towards Roma people, towards people with AIDS, that’s why they are mentioned specifically here.
The BiH vs Serbia case is not a victory for us, that’s what’s not being said here in the state media.
As for the people without documents, it’s also a problem for Serbia, and the question of how they managed to lose the documents in the first place.
Bganon, thanks for adding those things as well, they are all good points.
Owen and Sina, thanks!
Estavisti, I’ll remove the link. Hope you have your posts in the archive somewhere.
Ida, just leaving a clickable link to the article instead of copypasting the whole thing would be fine, that way you’ll credit the author better. Welcome to the blog btw.
Ida,
People who want the Serbs to be guilty will not let a simple thing like facts or evidence get in the way of that, so people like you and I end up wasting our time because they “believe” this or that, as Owen just stated — he BELIEVES the bodies are there. Well, who needs more than that? Who needs facts? Who needs truth? All anybody needs is to paint a people as the bad guys, thereby getting their scapegoats and excusting their own country’s culpability in the Balkan wars, and then to make sure nobody is allowed to change that view.
Feels his throat rise? He doesn’t know what that means. Righteous indignation based on lies does not make one’s throat rise anything like the indignation at being denied the truth as lies continue to be repeated ad nauseum about a people while statues are raised to actual mass murderers like Clinton and Blair who had no qualms about attempting to destroy a whole nation for the benefit of their careers. Statues raised by those who beheaded Serbs, who ethnically cleansed the Krajina and are rewarded with official government jobs for it instead of being thown into prison. Feels HIS throat rise? Very amusing perhaps, but I am not impressed.
a couple of people who know something about genocide:
“The gigantic campaign to brainwash America by our media against the Serbian people is just incredible, with its daily dose of one sided information and outright lies.”
– John Ranz, Chairman of Survivors of Buchenwald Concentration Camp, USA, and,
“This organized anti-Serb and pro-Muslim propaganda should cause anyone believing in democracy and free speech serious concerns. It recalls Hitler’s propaganda against the allies in World War II. Facts are twisted and, when convenient, disregarded.” – Yohanan Ramati, Director of the Jerusalem Institute for Western Defense.
Since we’re asking who’s read what, how about this?
http://www.srebrenica-report.com/
My apologies for the undiscriminating remark I made yesterday implying a blanket condemnation of Serbians. I should have been more careful and specific and I should have emphasised the respect I have for the many Serbians who have shown their commitment to justice and the rule of law in more difficult circumstances than I’m likely to find myself in. I was reacting in haste and anger not just to the comments that were the immediate cause of my irritation but to yet another public demonstration of support for Mladic that highlighted the apparent general lack of enthusiasm in Serbia to see Mladic brought to justice, as well as to the regular expressions of irritation that outsiders should expect some sort of action to be taken on the issue. I don’t apologise for my anger, just for the way I expressed it.
Blackbird,
Here’s a piece of interesting news from Croatia. The Croats claim that almost 25,000 Bosniaks, citizens of BiH, fought for Croatia in 1991. It’s interesting that in all the war news, nothing has ever really been said about Bosnian Muslims fighting in Croatia’s war and training there – or given any numbers. This does show a very large number who had hardcore war experience before the Bosnian war even started.
They say about 1,000 Bosniaks were killed and 1,000 injured in Croatia. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those who died fighting in Croatia have been claimed to have been civilians killed in whatever Bosnian town they were born in or from.
People scream at Serbia for helping or sending men to fight in Croatia or Bosnia, yet Croatia sent very large numbers of men – and had brigades stationed in Bosnia throughout the war; Bosniaks fought in Croatia in large numbers; Albanians from Kosovo were involved in Croatia’s and Bosnia’s war – plus the brief war in Macedonia, so it basically shows the bias against Serbs and how much forces against Serbs that the media and international community ignores totally. So how would a person like Owen ever learn of this fact if not for me?
http://vijesti.hrt.hr/ShowArticles.aspx?ArticleId=27395
Memorial to be built for Muslim defenders
Zagreb Mayor Milan Bandic and Mufti Sevko Omerbasic laid foundations for the building of a memorial outside the Zagreb Mosque in tribute to the fallen defenders of Muslim ethnicity. On the occasion the two officials recalled all Bosniaks who took Croatia’s side in 1991. There were almost 25,000 Bosniaks under arms, most of them citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Many of them still have not been granted Croatian citizenship, 1,100 were killed and as many were wounded, including 150 disabled.
Ida, like you I am compelled to pass around what I have found to be the truth about the Balkan wars and I will continue to spread the word as best I can. I think your information above is very important, but I have also found that no amount of factual info will change the minds of those already predisposed to condemn the Serbian side. Still, someone else might see your message and get some benefit from it. However, I doubt it would be someone like Viktor. I almost have the impression from him that even if 100% proof positive could be provided (proof that I am certain both the Yanks and the Brits have) that the Serbs did not commit genocide or anything close to it, he wouldn’t want to hear it. I despair the most for Serbs who are so content to have their nation defamed.
‘People scream at Serbia for helping or sending men to fight in Croatia or Bosnia, yet Croatia sent very large numbers of men – and had brigades stationed in Bosnia throughout the war’
That issue is one that I’ve raised before on a number of occasions. My beef is that even though these Croatian troops were illegally stationed in Bosnia and even though they fought and killed, that Bosnia has never brought a case of aggression against Croatia at the international court. Bosnia would have a case. It would seem that this isnt a widely known fact judging by the number of articles written on the ICJ verdict that dont even devote a sentence to this point.
Nor can you see any major Bosniak politican ever talking about this issue. It is hushed up for domestic reasons both on the part of Bosnian Muslums and Croats. So this issue (and many others are politicised).
Owen dont confuse a ‘public demonstation’ with a political rally. The effort of gathering a few hundred party workers is not difficult for the Serb Radical Party. A public demonstration is a different creature which suggests that support crosses political lines. The effort to ‘rename’ a street Ratko Mladic was just another in a long line of circus issues that are best ignored. On the other hand if this really was a matter of prinipcle as the radicals suggested – ‘why is it a crime to stick a banner ‘renaming’ a street’, then why not go all the way? I favour defending the principle of freedom to stick up a banner naming a street ‘Josip Broz Tito’ or better still ‘Adolf Hitler’. Or perhaps ‘Joseph Stalin square’?
Why didnt the Radicals do that? Man, those principles are so wafer thin that biting them is like biting fresh air.
Blackbird, I said I’d shut up but since you and Ida have kept the floodgates wide open I feel impelled to make one last post on the subject. I’d like to draw your attention to a document that should cause you to question some of your confident assertions even though I suspect that’s unlikely.
I have in fact been to look at http://www.srebrenica-report.com before – it seems to be a bit of a showpiece for people who think it offers convincing evidence about Srebrenica that supports the “alternative” view of what happened.
I presume you’ve read the “UN Security Council” document that’s the one item of “official” reference documentation the site offers access to. This “Security Council” document is in fact a submission from the Charge d’Affaires of the Permanent Mission of Yugoslavia to the UN asking for the text of the Yugoslav State Commission on War Crimes and Genocide Memorandum on war crimes and “crimes and genocide” in Eastern Bosnia (communes of Bratunac, Skelani and Srebrenica) in 1992 and 1993 to be circulated for discussion.
Whatever the merits and demerits of that document, what’s conspicuous by its absence from the site is a link to the rather more comprehensive perspective offered by the “Report of the Secretary General pursuant to General Assembly Resolution 53/35 – The fall of Srebrenica”, published as General Assembly Document A54/549 in 1999, readily available at various locations including the UN’s own website where you can select the language you wish to read it in by going to http://www.un.org/Docs/journal/asp/ws.asp?m=A/54/549.
Some of its content has dated a little but nevertheless it might be a useful starter for a book club project.
If you mean to suggest to me that the UN is an independent body, independent of the U.S. for example, then I would say pull the other one.
But I’ll look at the document you sited just out of curiousity. I am happy to look at ANYTHING as my interests lie in the truth. We have seen precious little of that so far.
bg anon,
Extremes beget extremes. If you find the Radicals extreme (and their very name implies that they are), then I would say that the pro-EU lobby that can’t wait to take all the blame for everything that ever happened in the Balkans and salivates, waiting for a chance at the gold ring that they will be able to grab, they imagine, as soon as Serbia gets EU membership is the other side of that same coin. A little more moderation, including holding on to principles and demanding respect, while at the same time taking a long hard look at Serbian culpability and doing something about it, is what I would like to see more of. So far the only person who comes close to that, sadly, is Kostunica. I should be grateful for small mercies, perhaps, but, no, I’m disgusted and repulsed by the lack of greater support for that kind of attitude.
Without the hit-me-again-because-I’m-so-bad PRO EU side, just panting for a pat on the head, there wouldn’t be a Radical Party.
Bganon, you have a legitimate point in principle regarding the Croatian forces and their responsibility for atrocities on Bosnian soil, but how realistic would it have been to expect the Bosnian govt. to be taking action on that front as well when its resources were already pretty far stretched by its efforts to proceed with the original case against Serbia? Where should priorities have lain? And amid the cries of unfair treatment of Serb indictees the ICTY conviction of Blaskic doesn’t seem to attract much attention.
I don’t say that the Radicals should be banned from expressing their opinions outright though I don’t think it’s unreasonable in principle to prosecute “hate crimes” likely to incite violence. Rather than their antics what makes me angry is the confidence they display that they won’t really be challenged, they feel that they don’t need to worry about public opinion. Bganon, you seem to have travelled a bit. Do you believe that the population of most of the major cities of Europe would be so relaxed about that sort of behaviour?
The major cities of Europe are exceedingly relaxed about anything Muslims do. It comes from a basic cowardice, both about recognizing anything that flies in the face of political correctness and from actual fear. So they resort to appeasement. Appeasement, appeasement, appeasement. See where it will get all of us — buying our own prayer mats or lying in our graves, that’s where.
That same appeasement mentality is found in Serbia and it is what has sprouted the Radicals as a reaction to it.
To try and move away to a hopefully less contentious area, I’d say No. 16. is your No. 1. “Include human rights and tolerance educational elements into current teachers curricula”.
One that I’m afraid you might have problems with is No. 4. In the U.K. legal aid provision has become less and less accessible over the years – governments will always find money spent helping lawyers help the poor an easy target for budget savings.
Owen the reason the Bosnian government isnt persuing Croatia has nothing to do with limited resources. It doesnt take a genius to put two and two together on this issue. Without Croatian assistance the Bosnian federation is dead. Trying to persue a case in the international court against Croatia will likely ensure not only the survival of Republika Srpska but increase the chances for RS to become an independent state. At the same time it would give fresh impeutus to calls for a Croatian statelet (Herceg Bosna) within the federation.
In short the Bosniaks need Croatian support. That may be understandable but it certainly has nothing to do with morality and everything to with a political decision. In other words it if isnt politically expedient the Bosniaks will toe the line. On the other hand some Bosniacs will claim that they support the abolishment of RS on moral grounds. Well, is politics morality or political expedience?
Blackbird I accept that some of the support for SRS is due simply to their stated opposition of the ‘democratic’ block or a reaction to it. However, cicrus stunts like this latest one – where ones intelligence is insulted, are invariably started by the radicals. One of the worst things anybody can do to me personally is insult my intelligence with cheap manipulative tricks. I kick the other way when I see this going on and the issue becomes lost – which is just as well, as it has nothing to do with the issue and everything to do with one political party trying to gain some political benefit.
Owen I dont think that one can compare contemporary Serbia which its recent history of conflict, to other European cities on the renaming of streets point. If that sounds like a cop-out answer I’m sorry. I would argue that without the 1990’s history (saying had Yugoslavia broken up peacefully) this type of stunt would not have happened at all.
The fact remains that much of the SRS support base are IDP’s and refugees who have been ethnically cleansed from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. Serbia needs more assistance from the EU to help these people because some of them feel desperate and turn to SRS in an effort to stop the clock.
“The major cities of Europe are exceedingly relaxed about anything Muslims do.”
Mmmm, not sure what this even means. Do tell me what horrors are being appeased from muslims on the streets of Europe.
If you mean the violent stuff from a small minority I wouldn’t call the general attitude one of appeasement exactly or that it makes people relaxed. Violent language or violence itself make people really tense. And we seem to have a new terrorist law every 6 months.
If you mean, as you seemed to with the reference to prayer matts, normal religious activities or clothing based on religious identity then relaxed is how europeans should be. I’m not sure that is always the case though.
Comments like that give away the nature of your ‘truth’ about the wars of the 1990’s though.
Good comments made on why Bosnia didn’t bring a case against Croatia. I think its more than just expedient reasons (although they are probably the decisive reason a case hasn’t been brought) because there is less emotional resonance to it. Looking at it from outside, it seems it’s easier in Croatian politics to accept that policy was immoral (even criminal) in Bosnia, but much harder to admit to a criminal policy towards Serbs.
There were emotional reasons for bringing the case against Serbia too. I got the impression that Bosniaks wanted (metaphorically) to beat the state round the head with the facts until they admitted the truth. Or their own interpretation of them.
http://juliagorin.com
Croatian and Muslim Concentration Camp Nazis Enjoyed Torturing Victims: Forensic Expert
Posted by Julia under Republican Riot
From Serbia’s Tanjug news agency:
[Forensic specialist] Srboljub Zivanovic said on Wednesday, speaking at the 4th International Conference on [WWII camp] Jasenovac held in Banjaluka, that “the objective of Croat and Muslim executioners and murderers in the Jasenovac death camp had been to torture their victims as much as possible, because they enjoyed that.”
A team of forensic anthropologists, including Zivanovic, performed the exhumation and forensic analysis of the murdered victims of Jasenovac in 1964, but no filming was permitted, and the press were banned as well, in order to prevent the discovered facts from becoming public knowledge, he said.
To explain the part about preventing it from becoming public knowledge, Yugoslavia’s Communist regime was trying to do the “brotherhood and unity” thing, and so anything that had the potential to disrupt the socialist stuff — such as the murderousness of Serbia’s Croatian, Bosnian and Albanian neighbors — was kept under wraps. This in no small way had something to do with the suppression of information at the U.S. Holocaust Museum and Yad Vashem regarding Serb- and Jew-slaughter by Croatians and Muslims.
“The silence of Jewish organizations is less easily explained,” Andrew Borowiec wrote in the Washington Times in 1994, “particlarly since Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal was aware of the slaughter.”
…For years the gruesome details about the systematic killing of Serbs, Jews, Croats and Gypsies in the huge camp complex of Jasenovac on the banks of the Sava River remained officially taboo.
Although documents and eyewitness accounts were at first ignored, and then mysteriously removed from international archives, the horror surpassing that of some of the worst Nazi extermination camps remains alive in the memory of a handful of survivors and of their kin.
It now appears that a vast international conspiracy involving Marshal Josip Broz Tito, founder of modern Yugoslavia, his ruling Yugoslav League of Communists, the United Nations, some Vatican officials, and even Jewish organizations strove to keep the Jasenovac story buried forever.
According to Yugoslav historicans, Tito’s reasoning was simple: Perpetuating the memory of crimes committed by pro-Nazi Croats would undermine Yugoslavia as a viable ethnic mosaic, so the truth had to be suppressed.
Tito’s watchwords were “brotherhood and unity,” and to pursue these high goals he tried to erase the chapter of Jasenovac.
The West generally went along, particularly after Tito broke with Stalin in 1948. The Vatican wanted to protect Roman Catholic Croats, who had been willing Nazi proxies in the Balkans.
Also playing a role in the suppression is the fact that, tragically yet again for the Serbs, the U.S. Holocaust Museum opened in the midst of the Balkan wars, when it was essential to portray Serbs as the principal evildoers. Therefore Serbs could not — could not — be shown to have been victims of the two groups they were now again forced to fight as the 1940s came raging back when the Soviet Union collapsed.
A more complete exhibit of WWII realities at the museum would have gone a long way to explain the 1990s conflict, and perhaps would have shamed our leaders out of the dangerous alliances they were making, which now imperil Americans and threaten a repetition of the visuals which could have served as our warning had they been shown.
The WWII exhumations continue to this day.
===
If you click on this link, you’ll see that, consistent with Balkan reporting protocol, this February AFP item doesn’t say who the exhumed victims are until the very last line — so the whole time that you’re reading, you’re assuming these are Croatian or Muslim victims of Serbs, rather than the other way around. (I described last month the sleight-of-pen reporting that has been pandemic among Balkans correspondents, quoting from Peter Brock’s book:
[Schork] wrote about a man named “Zarko Spasic” who disappeared near the village of Sipovac in Kosovo….Finally, in the eleventh paragraph of the reort, readers could figure out that Zarko Spasic was a Serb who was kidnapped and murdered by Albanian Muslims in the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA).
…
Maddeningly, journalists used this method of allowing presumption and mistaken inference to occur until deep into the narratives of thousands of such accounts — and long after copy editors had excised the most critical information — throughout the war reporting of the 1990s!)
By Ian: “Comments like that give away the nature of your ‘truth’ about the wars of the 1990’s though”
Although this is apparently intentionally a fairly cryptic statement, I interpret it to say, or at the very least imply, that the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo happened because Serbs don’t like Islam. IF that’s a correct interpretation, then, Ian, you have it entirely backwards. You are as wrong as you can be. I’ll give Britain 20 years, or even just 10, and we’ll see what you’ll say then. Britain is my second home and I can see it going down the sinkhole with steadily increasing speed.
Yep, it’s their favorite pastime.
http://www.takimag.com/site/article/still_slandering_serbia/
“Although this is apparently intentionally a fairly cryptic statement, I interpret it to say, or at the very least imply, that the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo happened because Serbs don’t like Islam.”
Errr no. I thought I was pretty clear but to make it crystal- one of the reasons that you believe the guff that you do is because of an irrational fear of Islam. And the prejudices that you so clearly display are pretty common on the American Right. Particularly this stuff about european ‘appeasement’ of Islam.
“Britain is my second home and I can see it going down the sinkhole with steadily increasing speed.”
Terrorists running the show in Belfast, secessionists taking power in Edinburgh and Cardiff. A worldwide media conspiracy to lie about the glorious victories based on solid intelligence information in Iraq….........
I see your point. Send the tanks to Edinburgh, that’ll sort it all out.
Well, you have convinced me, Ian! That’s very persuasive…right. If I didn’t have a life I might take this further but well…yawn…why bother when, as I’ve said before, facts don’t make any difference to some people.
Just know that I won’t feel any satisfaction when I’m proven right. I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to be wrong, but only a PC fried brain would think so in the face of all that’s out there.
Where Trying to Help Muslims Gets You. (Sued, of Course)
Posted by Julia under Republican Riot
Netherlands sued over Srebrenica
Relatives of the victims of the 1995 Srebrenica massacre have filed a case against the Dutch state and the UN, saying they allowed it to happen. The Bosnian town of Srebrenica was a UN safe haven under the protection of Dutch peacekeepers at the time.
About 8,000 Muslims were killed after Bosnian-Serb forces overran the town. [Not.]
The case was filed before The Hague district court. Dutch officials say compensation claims should be directed at the perpetrators of the massacre.
The officials mean “Sue the Serbs,” but actually the perpetrators are Srebrenica’s Muslims who acted under Naser Oric’s command to kill Serbs, as well as the fundamentalist Bosnian President Alija Izetbegovic, who orchestrated the Srebrenica “massacre” after Clinton told him he had to come up with 5,000 bodies to get an intervention.
Two-hundred women from the group known as the Mothers of Srebrenica carried banners in a silent march outside the Dutch parliament. Their lawyers said the Dutch were to blame for refusing to give air support to their own troops defending Srebrenica, claiming that would have prevented Bosnian-Serb forces from advancing.
Ah, it wasn’t enough that the UN didn’t disarm this “UN-protected safe area for civilians”. It wasn’t enough that the UN enabled the militarized enclave to continue launching attacks on Serbs from the “safe haven”. It wasn’t enough that the Srebrenica Muslims got to kill 3, 262 Serb civilians in the surrounding areas. No, the Dutch were also supposed to serve as human shields when the Serbs finally responded.
So Muslims are slaughtering Serbs and staging attacks on Serbian soldiers from a “safe haven.” The Serbs retaliate — and the Dutch are supposed to do something about it.
This lawsuit illustrates precisely what the Bush administration feared about the existence of a world court: that Americans, like Europeans, could be sent on peace missions and then get prosecuted or sued for not doing something that someone felt they should do — or for doing something that someone felt they shouldn’t do.
Whatever the outcome, this lawsuit should set a precedent: that no one should ever again attempt to help Muslims. Because they will sue you or, as in the case of Ft. Dix and Salt Lake City, kill you.
Meanwhile, the fact that 6,000 families are suing on behalf of an alleged 8,000 dead or missing reveals something: that, once again, Srebrenica wasn’t genocide, but a targeting of military men, about a soldier per family. That’s not genocide, especially when children and the child-bearing sex are bused out. And that’s, of course, if you buy their inflated numbers to begin with.
http://juliagorin.com