Couple of events led me to write this blog. One of them and the most influential one is that at the moment I am reading the book from Vladeta Jerotic about the Faith and the Country.
The question I pose to myself is how far should Serbia go in accepting the “new age” or the globalization culture?
It is apparent to me that the world is changing and that through technology it is becoming a smaller place. There is this global culture that is being put on as a dominating and superior culture in the world. The global culture is mainly developed by the US and the Western EU countries.
Having spent most of my life in EU countries across Europe I can confirm on the following important factors about this global culture: 1) Religion is totally discarded and its left to the free will of the individual of what he/she wants to believe in, the ultimate goal is the economy 2) family is losing its strength, where we are now considering ourselves more as individuals than as a unity in the family 3) English is the new global language and thus the Latin writing 4) tradition is considered as something primitive but romantic at the same time.
What about Serbia now?
1)*Religion is waking up*. Serbia has gone under many rooting and tearing apart of its cultural identity as well as its religious conscious and practice. When we finally rooted our identity in the Serbian society, Serbia was then occupied and ruled for 500 years by an Asian nation. Then, when Serbia gained its freedom after the 500 year rule, it started catching up to the rooting process and maybe even developed it until the Communist Yugoslavia, where both the Serbian identity and its faith were pushed under the carpet. The 90s was just the awakening of the Serbian identity as well as the identity of all the other nations that formed the unity of Yugoslavia. Unfortunately formations of their identities were regarded as a threat to the other nations, and that is where we had the catastrophic outcome. But being a Serb, Croat, Bosniak, Albanian should not be a threat to anybody who is sure and confident about his own identity. Since all of these nations were developing their identities and were still not sure of what they really are, the outcome was the xenophobic fear of other nations. Now that the wars are over (at least I hope so), where does Serbia stand now?’ More and more young people are returning or at least showing interest to the Orthodox faith. More and more people are instead of departing from the religion, the way the “global citizen” is doing, they are moving closer to it.
2)*The Serbian family* I don’t see it as strong as it once was before, but it still holds on its patriarchal values. Having both men and women to work, now both are breadwinners in the family, thus both are equal in the family status. In Europe the concept of family is losing its structure. Europe as well as Serbia are suffering from the white plague, where the young couples are afraid to enter into the marriage community, and when they do they have one or two children just enough to give both of them the freedom to pursue ambitions outside the family. In extreme cases like in Denmark marriage calmly exists. Young people have kids without getting married, keeping the option of the split always open, even though they already have children.
I see Serbia moving towards the Global culture of having more two individuals in the family than the union between the man and the woman, but I also don’t see Serbia losing the old patriarchal values of the family to the extent where family as its meaning will cease to exist.
3)*The knowledge of English in Serbia* is still far behind than in the Western countries, but this knowledge is becoming more and more important in Serbia, which in a way is controversial to the fact that Cyrillic writing is being kind of forced on the new generation. Is this good or bad? Couple of days ago I had a lunch with a Spanish “European” (a fanatic European identity builder), and he thought that it was ridiculous that Serbia was using Cyrillic writing, when the whole world is using Latin writing. Giving away the Cyrillic writing in my eyes is giving away our history, and thus our identity. Referring to my discussion in point 1), are we going to join another Yugoslavia now?
4)*Tradition in Serbia* I believe is still considered as something present in the everyday society, even though it is diminishing. Do we look at it as primitive being? I don’t think so; in many cases we even try to force its present. Do we look at it as a distant romantic thing? Romantic yes, but not distant, because Serbian traditions still are interesting now to the people, maybe due to the fact that under Communism it was banned( most of Serbian traditions are religion related).
To conclude on my initial question, it is my personal opinion that Serbs and Serbia should nourish their national as well as religious identity, but if it is nourished in a correct manner, this identity will not pose a threat to other nations within Serbia. Having a strong national identity, means being confident and secure about oneself and then different cultures and beliefs will not pose a threat. Tolerance and flexibility are the key words and are of vital importance in the Orthodox Church.
The “global culture” is changing Western nations into a uniform culture, but is that a healthy process? Lets not forget that Yugoslavia was also a “global culture” (brotherhood and unity), and we saw the final outcome. In my opinion, there is a lot to learn by Serbian people from the global culture, a lot to adopt, but this learning and adoption process should never bring the Serbian identity into a question.
{ 50 comments… read them below or add one }
“patriarchal values of the family to the extent where family as its meaning will cease to exist”
What does that mean? I never had a father, does that mean I wasn’t apart or didn’t have a family? A family can be anything: single parent, two parents and, yes, even two parents of the same sex. It’s this so called “moral-meaning” and definition that is the root of the “family” problem.
The world is changing in the ways it is because her citizens are finally starting to wakeup to the fact that religion and it’s values are just as corrupt as anything out there. Perhaps even more corrupt. All people want to do is live their lives and raise their children the best way they can. That should be the focus! Everything else will come naturally. Let the people be themselves without having to worry what some preacher wants.
Respectfully,
John
Ivan,
>>In my opinion, there is a lot to learn by Serbian people from the global culture, a lot to adopt, but this learning and adoption process should never bring the Serbian identity into a question.<<
I agree with everything you wrote (especialy with this one
) !
Just one more thing: please ask your Spanish friend would he have such comments on Greek alphabet in Greece? Would he have the courage to say something like that to some Greek? I just wonder what was YOUR answer to this “builder of new world order”?
Dear John,
Now you say: >>I never had a father,does that mean I wasn’t apart or didn’t have a family?<<
I am sorry to say this, but I think that you didn’t have THE family – how many times in your childhood did you feel sorry about your dad missing? Can you say that you had a happy childhood? Did you feel secure without your father? Do you consider yourself as a complete person, without any complex? Are you sure you have the knowledge to rise your kids, considering that you didn’t have a father?
Recently, you said that you have >>a Serbian son living just outside Beograd<<
I must ask you: does YOUR son have a father?
Before you get angry with me, please try to understand my point – IT IS important in what kind of family children rise!
If a child has both mother and father, living in harmony, these are the best options for a kid to be normal and healthy person once he grows up. Therefore – healthy person makes healthy society!
This is not “moral-meaning” as you say, this is pure fact in psychology.
One more thing. You say: >>Let the people be themselves without having to worry what some preacher wants.<<
This is OK.
BUT DON’T CONDEMN PEOPLE WHO DO WORRY WHAT SOME PREACHER WANTS!
They also deserve THEIR freedom, don’t they?
Respectfully,
Vesna
John,
I would really recommend you a book from Erich From under the name of “ the Art of Love”. In this book this famous psychiatrist and philosopher describes what true love is and how it effects the creation of individuals. In general, not going to your specific case, when a child is raised it needs to have a balance of two kinds of love. The love of the mother which is unconditional , is always there for the child no matter what the child does. However the love of the father is conditional where the child actually has the feeling that he/she needs to win or gets awarded by the father. As the child is growing and going through different stages , the child starts identifying himself/herself with both parents, until one day the child becomes its own individual. However a child may grow up in a family of both parents, but if the balance between two loves is not set, there are deformations ( which in fact we all have to an extent) which impact on child’s psych and personality.
With this passage I tried to explain to you that the traditional patriarchic family does make sense, and going into the new era where we decide to ignore the social values that have been present for thousand years , in my opinion can bring no good. A single parent can not offer both types of love and principles two parents ( of opposite sex) can.
You see to me a Serbian family is not only parents, but its the whole family, and the whole family standing up for each other. Grandparents play a very important role to Serbian children, while in the west, most of my European friends calmly have a contact with their grandparents. In the event that there is a single parent, the outer family is the one that gives the child necessary love and attention in order to enable the child to grow into a healthy individual.
Here is an example for you to think about: Imagine a child is brought up by a mentally unstable mother who has ups and downs on a regular basis. This mother may love the child, but the effect will be that the child will grow up with the trauma of ups and downs of his/her mother. However imagine if there is a family and one of the parents is unstable, the most likely effect would be that the healthy parents love and attention will compensate the illness of the other parent. And if we take into account a Serbian family with the grandparents playing an important role, the child will have more sources of love, and the effect of the ill parent will even be smaller that if those people did not play an important role in child’s life.
Vesna,
thanks for your support on this issue.
As for the Spanish guy, this was really an interesting story. I didn’t go into details in my blog, fearing that i might lose the point i was making. It was actually a business lunch where I and my boss attended with a Spanish Auditor Partner ( thats the highest position you can get in the Audit world). He was a very sophisticated person, who really prepared himself for the dinner with my boss, by studying the Belgian history and its current affairs ( my boss is Belgian by the way). To be polite with me he asked me about Serbia and a bit about Serbian culture. Thats where we touched Cyrillic writing and I responded with the example of Greece. Apparently he was not well prepared for the Balkan countries, since he claimed that Greece is Latinizing its alphabet. I had to tell him that’s ridiculous( even though that he was so respected by other people), and he got offended. Then he pulled out a twenty Euro bill to show me that the writing of EURO is all in Latin. But since I grew up in Greece, I showed him that the letters on the EURO bill are in fact Greek, and by coincidence some of the capital Greek letters look like Latin letters. He then just changed the topic of the conversation, but that was my victory and I felt good. For the rest of the evening he did not ask me a question at all
Vesna,
First, I’m not angry with you at all! Second, if you would go and read my blog you will know this Serbian son I have, well, his father was killed by Naser Oric and his men.
Third; you have no right to judge a person based on the circumstances he or she was born into. There are more kids born into this predicament, that you guys think morally wrong, than not! The world is changing simply because as these kids grow up they have realized the church is corrupt and has certain objectives outside what is best for the world’s citizens.
A human being does not need a father, nor a mother for that fact, to know how to raise and care for a child. This is called natural instinct.
And you know what…I had a family! My mother busted her ass raising us four boys on her own the best way she knew how! For you to say I’m not as good a person as I could have been because I didn’t have a father is blatantly ignorant! I thank my God daily my mother had the strength to leave my father when she did, for if I would have been under his influence I would be worse off than I am now.
With respect, your holier-than-thou “God knows best” attitude is what is wrong with this world today. What, is my son, a Serb, less of a man or a Serb because his father was killed by enemy forces when he was a baby and is under the influence of an American? The only difference between him, I and you are the places we happened to be born in. We bleed the same, shit the same and cry the same.
And what the fuck to do you know about being a complete person? What, you are complete because you had a loving mother and father and I’m not because I didn’t? Read day 20 on my blog! I say this because you seriously remind me of a “war criminal” I know who had this same attitude and who truly believed his DNA was better than those who were not like him and should subsequently be murdered.
Until you venture out beyond your comfort zone and live the life of your enemy you have no idea what you are talking about. I actually fear my boy may one day end up influenced by the likes of you and your attitude. It’s this very attitude that has and will flame the first shots of the next war! Enough of you for now!
Ivan,
Your point is baseless for this one simple fact! Those born into the circumstance you consider sinful do not have a choice in the matter. So, what, these kids are evil because they just happened to be born into the life they were born into? I do not believe you believe this but, if you do, then you are an enemy of mine.
I do not need some rich fuck that has a few books out there to tell me what true love is! The human brain is the authority on this subject! So, in your opinion, the kids who do not have a choice in the matter are just doomed? Are they bad, evil or deserve to die because of the mistakes of their sinful parents? COME ON! Give me a break!
Both yours and Vesna’s point seem to be: being that I was lucky enough to be born into the perfect circumstances, well, then I’m a better human being and deserve the best things in life while my counterparts, those who are not so lucky, deserve Satan’s wrath!
Wars are waged because of this very thought process daily! I refuse to believe in bad DNA like a man I once knew who is accused of atrocious war crimes because he believed and used this “excuse” to treat fellow human beings like animals!
You are basically saying my life, my boy’s life and the lives of millions across this world are shit because they do not live up the standards of your perfect life.
I’m sorry but, I’d be more than happy to fight in a war against the likes of this attitude! And I’m sure there are millions out there who would too! I wonder who would actually win???
Day 20’s link
For the record, I’m not angry or pissed! I’m simply engaged in a debate here that I feel needs to be won for the world’s poorer class!
Please do not take anything I say persoal, for I do not take your words that way! Open discussion and debate is a good thing; something this world needs more of!
Respectfully,
John
John,
You did not read my comment with care, and thus you jumped to wrong conclusiosns.
Please qutoe me a sentance in my comment that leads your to the following conclusion:
“ being that I was lucky enough to be born into the perfect circumstances, well, then I’m a better human being and deserve the best things in life while my counterparts, those who are not so lucky, deserve Satan’s wrath!”
In reality you have people being born in perfect circumstances and yet they turn out to be criminals, and just destroy their and others life. On contrary you have people being born in bad circumstances and they manage to create something valuable out of their lives.
But the fact is, that there is a greater tendency of people having a psychosis ( they do not need to turn out into visible criminals) if their childhood was not under normal circumstances. That is all I am saying and I believe Vesna too (thats what I understood by reading her comment). In no way did I mean that now we have to kill these people. What I am reinforcing , not attacking, is the value of Serbian family, where a child is born with a mother and a father, where the grandparents are always there for their grandkids, because thats their next full time job.
Unfortinately not everybody is lucky to be born under “perfect” cirucmstances, and in no way do I say that anybody is a “ better” person than anybody else. There is not a perfect formula , that manages to classify the world in balck and white. As a matter of fact we are always grey.
God has made us different , He has given us the freedom to chose how we live our lives, and He has also helped us by giving us the Christian values. Its due to this freedom that we have to chose how we want to live.
John,
Being raised only by your mother doesn’t make you a bad person or a sub-human. However, as you said that you adopted a Serbian boy whose father was murdered by Oric, it is your and your womans task now to provide your boy with all the things that you were deprived of. What I understand with the term family, and which is the same as Ivan’s perception, is that the closeness of the family last life-long, not until the child turns to be an adult. Even when the child becomes 40 he should know that he has somewhere to lean on, siblings, parents, etc. I live in Germany, my parents are in Serbia and my brother is in Belgium. I know that anytime I need their help they will be there on me to help me with any problem I have. Those are the family values, that are unfortunatelly fading away. Many of my German friends don’t have any contacts anymore with their parents/siblings, and no wonder that most of them are constantly depressed, take drugs and constantly searching for themselves and their position in the world. They are deprived of moral support that a family could provide them, friends are not enough. That’s individualism to John. You know, historically the mighty Roman empire fell apart not because of barbarian invasions, but because of decadency, loss of moral values.
You also blaim the religion. Tell me, you blaim religion as a life philosophy give by God, or the religious organization, constructed by humans? I’m an Orthodox Christian, and that was my choice, but I may also highly criticize the Serbian Orthodox Church, but never lose my loyalty to it, even though sometimes I think I should.
Ivan,
Great text, I really enjoyed it.
I’m confused!
Jebiga!
Ok, being that you belive what you just said, your pervious arugment as well as Vesna’s I do not understand given the fact that the children born into their circumstances have no say in it.
I may just have read your comment wrong but, my first impression as well as my second over all impression by going back and re-reading it is the same.
I read your previous post with much interest. And my overall impression was that you were saying that those kids born into perfect circumstances were better and deserve more then those who are not. If this is wrong I apologize! I can not quote a specific sentence.
John,
I in no way do claim that anybody is better than anybody else. In my last comment and the last two paragraphs I say that God did not make us equal, but its up to us how we make our lives. Also I said that there isnt a perfect formula to categorize black or white, its all grey. But there is a tendency that children with poor circumstances ( more psychological), may turn out having a psychosis(which we all do have to some extent), but this again does not mean that anybody is better or wrose. We human beings are not absolute values, where you can compare us on an equal basis and come to a conclusion that one is better or worse.
Cvijus,
thanks
Cvijus,
I can understand what is being said when it is put this way! Here in America there is a debate about this current subject but, it’s about what is right and wrong based on what the church says, not what is in people’s minds and hearts.
I too have family that no matter what can depend on me and I them. Sadly, at this point in my life, there is no woman.
With all due respect, I personally beleive organized relgion is the work of Satan, if anyone can understand this. I do not claim a relgion and feel totally uncomforable in the so called house of the Lord.
I belive in a God though! I pray nightly and have a personal, moral vaule system that guides me through my travels.
I apologize if I read the wrong meaning into a comment, for that was not my intent. The fact is though, this world is filled with people who judge, rule and act on the guidlines of the church, a church I totally dispise.
Respectfully,
John
John,
I don’t care for most organized religion in the world, either; however, the churches have had their high points and their low points. Some religions (e.g. Catholics during WWII) were culpable in human suffering, whereas others (e.g. Orthodox) put themselves on the line to aid the people, such as during WWII in Yugoslavia. While I am not religious at all, I respect the religious people who in the past have followed the true teachings of Christ as reported in the bible. If you look at those teachings they are about egalitarianism and doing to others as you would have them do unto you. This is goodness in a pure form, but it’s not a mamby-pamby do-gooder goodness; it’s a fight-for-the-dignity-of-man kind of goodness because even Jesus (who I believe was a man who actually lived) called for taking up the sword against the oppressors.
The original worth of some churches has been lost today in an overriding preoccupation with money and political correctness. The value of religion has been watered down in this way. Whether or not there is a God, I believe that religion serves a purpose in society — yes, in giving guidelines for behavior. If not for religion, after all, why WOULD it be wrong to just kill somebody you didn’t like? Where would “morals” come from? You might say “the law” but the law is based on religious tennents of right and wrong. I believe that morals DID come from people’s gut feelings of right and wrong and that those people then formalized that into religion. Do you see where I’m stumbling to go with this?
Of course it depends. Extremist Moslem society encourages killing non-Moslems. This is another reason I support the Orthodox Church — as a bulwark against Islam.
I agree with other commentators that having a mentally healthy mother AND father, who are part of a larger extended family that is very involved, is the IDEAL way to raise any child. Sadly, probably a majority of children don’t get this ideal, but it doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be strived for. It also doesn’t mean that those children who had to make do with much less are any less worthy than anyone else, probably just the opposite for their struggle is that much harder, but they, themselves, should then try to provide the closest they can get to ideal for their own children.
Dear John,
I am sorry to made you angry (to the point you misunderstood our posts!).
You’ve got me totally wrong. I didn’t judge anybody for anything.
What I tried was to show the importance of a healthy family as “builder” of healthy society (please, read Ivan’s second post, Cvijus’ also, they explained it much better then me!), which “builders” of new world order try to destroy.
What I told you on personal basis (what made you so angry) was actually asking to analyse yourself, as I do myself, all the time. It wasn’t meant to be insult.
But, then, YOU didn’t hesitate to characterize me variously, with very insulting and rude words.
>>That is all I am saying and I believe Vesna too (thats what I understood by reading her comment.<<
Ivan, exactly! Thanks
And, I am glad about your victory
Χαιρετισματα απο Βελιγραδι!
)
I don’t think limiting Serbian identity to religion, alphabet, family values and tradition is useful to Serbia, i think these factors are, well… limiting.
Also i consider religion to be limiting factor in any soup ‘per se’.
‘Healthy family’ shouldn’t be limited to mother, father and kids only – single parents are perfectly able to be considered healthy as well as gay parents without setting some ‘ideals’ because things change, as well as ideals.
I also don’t think Serbian tradition should be limited to religion related, old or romantic things only. Rock, turbo folk, movies, Zika Obretkovic, communism, graffiti, urban legends, Partizan, Crvena Zvezda are also part of our tradition, i think it can be useful if we do not exclude these things as well, if we learn from them and if we remain open for all ‘options’ instead of just prioritizing what we think personally is the best and right.
Hello, I hope to be back with you guys now that my hard drive problem has almost been resolved…
Until then, above all I think that relgion should be chosen and not something you are born into. I find it ridiculous the way that in the Balkan states you are almost like a member of some tribe depending on what religion you are before you are even concieved.
If I was born pravoslavac and decided to become a catholic that does not (as a Serb) make me a Croat. Or if I dedided to become a mormon that doesnt mean I still count as a pravoslavac who has joined a sect.
I’m not a fan of the conservative religious view which preaches about what is and what isnt. We, decide that for ourselves.
A man is a sum of his decisions, not accident of birth.
I address your point Ivan (in some way although I dont believe you are an extremist) ‘Giving away the Cyrillic writing in my eyes is giving away our history, and thus our identity’ with a blog entry I made yesterday at my B92 blog here:
Even if I was to agree with you to a point on cyrilic I disagree with your conclusion. The abandonment of old Serbian language before Karadzic simplified (yeah folks if you dont know Serbian has been simplified although you would never think it!), did that mean the end of Serbian culture? No, I think this point is exaggerated.
The bottom line is that national identity for me personally is dwarfed by my individual identity. I dont behave like the people around me, in fact (the antagonist in me) tried to behave differently from the mass. I’ve always been that way.
Also on this ‘The 90s was just the awakening of the Serbian identity as well as the identity of all the other nations that formed the unity of Yugoslavia. Unfortunately formations of their identities were regarded as a threat to the other nations’.
I think there was a direct relationship between this awakening in Serbia and Croatia and the destruction of Yugoslavia and the intolerance of those of other religious persuasions. A ‘soft’ view on this ‘awakening’ only made it much easier for politicians and church leaders to manipulate the mass.
I would also add that the status of women – particularly the right to equal status on work, is not to do with Serbia as much as it is to do with Communism in Yugoslavia. This is a positive aspect of that legacy – there is also obviously bad stuff as well.
As far as the family is concerend I think Serbia is changing quite rapidly. The birth rate is low. Statistics show that the younger population do not share the same values and patterns of behaviour as their parents (look at how few women cook these days). Look at how people are holding off on marriage. Look at how many 30 something women are single. People are also deciding on smaller families.
People continue to move from villages (where traditionally people had large families) to towns. I predict problems in society on this level. It will be up to Serbian men to bridge the gap but I do not think they have been socialised into their new role as women have discarded theirs.
This is the link I meant to post… Its not really about identity but on some level it is. National identity provides a very welcome distraction for politicians who use this trick time and again to cover up the fact that they are incapable of providing the people with a prosperous country:
http://blog.b92.net/node/3462
What I don’t understand is how anyone can question any Serb’s identity. I mean, a Serb is a Serb no matter if they were born now or a thousand years from now. A country and it’s life is constantly evolving into something of the future. A future that must be recognized if this, or any country has a chance of surviving.
I do not influence what makes my boy a Serb! He is a Serb first and always will be. He knows this and loves his country and his heritiage with a passion that is heartwarming and inspiring.
Being that I’m American, there are a few things I do not understand given his rationale or ways of dealing with issues I am alien to. I support him no matter, though, because a nation, a people are constantly evolving in this ever evolving world we live in. An entire nation as a whole can not ever hope to prosper under one way of doing things. Times change, and with time, a country and her citizens must change. I think it would be easy to recongize this wanting to change or, evolve, if you take the time to view life through a young man’s eyes given what the present day facts bring to the table.
I am in total agreement with Victor and Bganon on this subject. A few of you thought I was mad…I truly wasn’t. I was just simply voicing my opinion on my experiences and life. I may be Amercian but, I’m also a human! The human part should come first always!
This world is evolving into something that is totally alien to us all! I think it is important for us all to sit down and actually ponder what is ahead for us first, verses what is ahead for a single country. The nation to do this first will surely prosper beyond belief in the upcomming “bad-times”.
Respectfully,
John
Hi all…
Pretty interesting text and a very important topic, given where Serbia stands at the moment.
Myself, I don`t see the problem in mixing tradition and globalization (or westernization, whatever). I love Serbian tradition, family ties and heritage, and am religious too, but that doesn`t stop me from enjoying all the beauty that world has to offer – been that enjoying beautiful mosques and prayers in Istanbul, dealing with cultural differences of German and American girls that don`t see family as something too important (except when it comes to giving/receiving christmas presents) etc… Point is – I see diversity as something beautiful and enjoy exploring them.
Now, we do have a problem in Serbia that people are dividing into two groups (polarizing, if you wish) – and both are very wrong. One wants to integrate into west as soon as possible and is completely careless about our history, traditions and heritage (see them as something we need to forget about). The other one is refusing to change at all! They think that the only way to keep cyrilic alive is to dump latin alphabet (which is also part of our tradition). They think that we should ignore everything coming from the west, that computers are evil etc…
And I hate this polarization, but I accept it as a part of transition. When first group starts travelling more abroad they will learn to respect it`s own culture more (the best thing I learned in last 10 months while living in Istanbul) and they will see that the West is not as good as they thought. And the second group will soon realize that West not evil as nationalists keep telling them and that our culture won`t vanish…
To conclude – transition is a long process and it is far from just politics and economy. It is more about us and our perceptions.
I know I will always be Serbian and proud of it. And will have lots of kids and keep family ties. And keep exploring and enjoying all good things globalization is bringing to us too.
Cheers
Nikola,
In times like this when there is a great upheaval, polaraized extremes always come out. This will dissipate with time.
Blackbird – that`s exactly my point…
and that`s why I know that Serbia won`t lose it`s identity…
however, I find this topic very relevant because the worst thing you can do when you faced to a challenge is not to talk about it…
u zdravlje
BGanon,
In order to avoid lengthy discussions on this topic, the danger I see in Serbia going away from its values mis described in your above comment:
“ As far as the family is concerend I think Serbia is changing quite rapidly. The birth rate is low. Statistics show that the younger population do not share the same values and patterns of behaviour as their parents (look at how few women cook these days). Look at how people are holding off on marriage. Look at how many 30 something women are single. People are also deciding on smaller families.”
As I concluded in my post, we need to be open to the new changes of the society, but we must never put the question on our faith and our identinty.
I am sure Cvijus,Nikola and Blackbird would agree to this.
Ivan
I dont see anything wrong with having that view. But it rather depends on what you mean with those words. If you are saying that people should not be able to question their religion (‘question their faith’) then I disagree. Nor am I keen to allow men from the clergy too much power – we should question them. For example the nasty scandals which have been going on in the catholic church – havent been going on so much because of a corrupt west, as much as they have been going on because people arent used to questioning their religious leaders. And of course senior members of the clergy cover up crimes and misdomenors.
If you are saying that personal identity should be subjugated to national identity again I disagree – it should be the other way round.
Perhaps my view sounds a little hard line to you but above all I believe in free choice. If people choose to behave a certain way, if people choose to follow the national religion then I truly have no problem with a joint national identity and national religion.
But if its a case of programming people to behave in a certain way – essentially like lemmings (makes them easier to control) rather than letting them make choices as individuals then I am against it.
I also believe that if somebody chooses something, rather than if it just because they know no other way, it will make their belief stronger.
Bganon,
I do agree that we all should have the freedom of choice. Regarding the religion, I do believe that the biggest critics of the Orthodox Church are the ones that in fact know nothing about it. Most of the people who are promoting that the Orthodox Church is corrupt because of the people that represent it, have not even read the Bible nor any other books about the faith.
Bringing religion as a class in Serbian schools I find is a very good way to educate the future generations about the philosophy of Christianity. Unfortunately I do believe that the Serbian Orthodox Church did not use this opportunity to a full extent, and that its teachers are not fully competent for such an important task.
As a summary of my thoughts
, I think that before you chose another religion, you should learn about the religion in which you were born, and determine yourself whether it is good for you or not. But running against the religion in which you were born, just because it is “ uncool” I find it wrong.
As for your comment that the priests should have less power, I partially agree with you. Politicians should hold the power in managing the country’s material status. Priests however should be managing the society’s spiritual well being. Where is the line that splits the two? Or what is the balance of these two important factors? I don’t know, and honestly in my opinion Greece is the closest to this equilibrium, but then again it took Greece 2000 years to reach this stage.
QUOTE: “I would really recommend you a book from Erich From under the name of “ the Art of Love”.
Ivan, thank you for reminding me of this book; for one of my communication courses we did an extensive study of Fromm’s book and the issues raised in the book. I think I might even have a copy lying around somewhere.
Religion and public school should not be one in the same. Man does not have to read a bible to know what religion is. True religion is in one’s heart not on what some corrupt priest or king wrote a few thousand years ago. Religion is common sense!
I would not want any kind of religion taught to my boy in Serbia by public school teachers. Religion corrupts!
Keep religion out of public places and in the respective homes of those parents who think it necessarry to teach their children what common sense should already be teaching them.
Power, politics, Greece 2000 years…all corrupt…no priest should be managing any society’s spiritual well being. Parents should take this role and then allow their children to choose for themselves.
You show me a nation and religion as one and I’ll show you a cause worth fighting and dying for!
John!
Ivan I dont know that pepole accuse the Orthodox Church of corruption particularly – I think ‘they’ do that no more than any other church is accused of corruption.
Its not the particular church that is the problem, its the culture of power thats the problem – which is universal and not nation or religion specific. Once in the church, one is far less accountable than in any other position, knowing human nature this is bound to lead to abuses of position.
The church has no more right to be above criticism than any other institution, they must be put under the spotlight otherwise senior members of the church will look the other way rather than admit that wrongdoing goes on within their religion.
There is little chance that reasonable, logical thinking people will follow any organised religion unless that religion shows itself to be above reproach. It is inevitable that this proportion of the population is growing throughout the world – those that choose. Of course if a people have already been ‘programmed’ to follow their national religion thats a way of ensuring nothing has to change. But programming isnt an effective method any longer because people have such great access to information these days. People are not so easy to fool any more.
And I dont count people who dont truly believe or go to church as religious. Its not enough to refer to oneself as pravoslavac (for example) and to subscribe to one or two traditions associated with it. In order to be a real pravoslavac you must seriously strive to be a better person, follow the bible, go to church and so on. As you know most supposedly religious people dont do this at all. Or at least they will go to church and think this is enough. In my mind it is not enough. God (provided there is one) see’s through this hypocricy.
I dont particularly understand what is societies ‘spiritual well being’. To be honest most churchmen do not seem in touch with society so I dont know how they would be fit to know what is societies well being.
srecna nova…
Good point BgAnon!
Let the people and parents choose for themselves, not what some corrupt church that wants more money!
I know some hate me being that I’m American but, my boy is not…he is SERBIAN to the BONE! In fact, I have lost my security clearance because of him being that he is SERBIAN. What a crock! Fuck American MI!
I’m in the process of doing up a post on this loss of my clearence! It hurts but, at the same time I’m proud. I’m proud because I have given him a different life. I have given him options. I have given him unconditional love! Even though I think it bullshit I’m out many jobs because of this loss of my clearence, I love my boy and would give my life for him.
There is more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak! What is going to occur is going to happen. I’m almost at my witts end trying to remain loyal, so to speak, or should I say the slightest bit recognizable!
John
Bganon, John,
Mir Boziji! Hristos se rodi!!
Merry Christmas to you guys!!
I respect your arguments and I can understand what you mean, but what I am trying to do is to explain to you to look at religion beyond the political or clerikal perspective.
Bganon you commented that a lot of people claim that they are orthodox but they do not follow all of the rules/customs of this faith, and thus you say they are not then. I disagree with you on that matter because that is where we have the choice and freedom to believ at our own pace. Christianity is not just a set of rules, but it is our love to God, and thus our love to His creations. I personally do not follow all of the rules set out in the Bible, but I do consider myself as an Orthodox Christian.
I will try to give you an example of my family friend who is now a priest in the Greek Orthodox Church. He was born in Belgrade in an athiest family. When he completed his studies (Law) he realised that there is more to life than just the matterial appearance (athiest view). So he decided that he wanted to believe in something. He studied all of the major religions, he read Khuran, Bible, Jehovas witnesses testamoneis, and so on. He spend two years just studying religions, and in the end he chose a religion that suit his heart the most. He chose the religion of his ancestors. If he chose any other religion In would have praised him as well, because he studied and put the effort in order to find himself.
Most of the athiest do not know anything about Christianity or any other religion and they do not even want to put the effort as to why have their ancestors believed in that.
As for the programming point, as I said earlier on , religion is far beyond the clerks and priests. A true Christian does not go to Church because of the priest, but he/she goes to the Church because they have the need to be closer to God. The whole concept of liturgy is seen as a journey to visit God. In everyday terms, the priest is just the driver who is taking us to this tour. And I will kiss the priests hand regardless of what he has done, or what he believes, only because through his “driving” I am closer to God.
Religion gives you the ideal , and that ideal none of us are able to achieve only because we are humans. But it is our task to strive to reach that perfection. I had a talk with an American psychiatrist, who in fact is a strong athiest. He believes that relgion is useful because through our prayers, we go through the process of psychoanalysis. And the concept of psychoanalysis is the strive to learn ourselves and try to make the best of ourselves. That is what religion gives you, and Carl Jung has scientifically proven that yes its all in our hands to make changes in our personal well beings, but without the help of “extraordinary “ force its an almost impossible task.
As a conclusion, religion gives you the ideal ( you can consider that as programming), but it gives you the freedom to chose if you want that and how fast you want to get to that ideal. The church however is the medium to bring us all together and help us accelerate to that perfection.
That is how I see religion and how i distinguish the Church and my faith. But studying faith, I am also studying myself and my ancestors.That is why I belive that kids in school should have a madatory class of religion.
Greetings,
Ivan
Of course Christianity is not just a set of rules but its not just about going to church 2 or 3 times a year either. It has to be deeper than that. Numerous religious works are quite fundamentalist in nature – including the old Testament. They are the texts that say what this organised religion is and what it is not and therefore in order be a proper follower one has to make a serious effort to follow these texts.
Seriously, if I was to decide to be a real christian I would carry a bible around with me (not to preach to others but to try to take solace in the words written). I would go to church regularly, I would always be careful not to break the commandments. Organised religion isnt like a pick and mix sweet or candy counter where you can decide what to take and what not to take. Its all or nothing. If one wants a milder religion where he / she doesnt have to obey so many rules or if one doesnt like some rules then one can convert or attempt to have a personal relationship with God without (self appointed) intermediaries.
I have found that many truly religious people I’ve spoken to on this agree with me. Its the ones who want the comfort blanket of thinking they will go to heaven when they die but dont want to make a real effort who have a problem.
My point on religion generally isnt that it is programming. My point on national / organised religion is what I call programming. You are raised and taught about one particular religion above all others and are therefore programmed. Being given a choice in religion implies that one should be taught about different religions equally, otherwise it is hardly a choice. On the other hand one should also be allowed to choose whether he or she wants to study religion or not. In a school I went to we had religious education but they were smart enough to combine this subject with sociology (one semester each) so we had a balanced picture.
Many of todays atheists are not ignorant of religion, you would be surprised, I’ve had numerous discussions with atheists, many of whom attended religious classes in schools (in the west). They didnt choose to become atheists because of ignorance, they chose it because they thought that religion was likely a creation by man in order to give him a sense that his life was worth living. Religion used as a potential means to keep ordinary (particularly poor) people from rebelling against their rulers etc. Some of those theories are worthy of study. Oh and dont forget it does take more courage to be an atheist than to be an armchair christian. Having the courage of conviction is something to be admired – particularly if according to organised religion one is risking etneral punishment in the afterlife. Not to mention being the target of hatred from others (who, according to most relgions – provided they follow it properly – are not supposed to hate).
I agree with your American friend that religion can be useful – studies show those results, but they also show that meditation and other forms of spirtual development are equally useful.
You know as an aside (on a personal level) when thinking about these things I always wonder about myself. Why do I believe this or that? Why do I need to believe this or that? But I do wonder how deeply other people do this. They feel a void and then they fill it and feel better for it. Does it therefore matter if the tool they use to plug the void truly exists or not? I’m not smart enough to have the answer for others but I know that in my own personal case ignorance most certainly is not bliss.
Wasnt there a Steve Martin move about this?
Merry Christmas
Actually I’ve been thinking a lot about this in the past few days in regard to remarks made by senior members of the church.
The church I see has come out with some quite strong remarks on abortion or ‘child murder’ as they are calling it. Of course to the church abortion has always been wrong but its interesting that such emphasis is placed on this issue in the light of the elections coming up. Since 2000 the church has never placed such public importance to the issue.
My own view is (as one might expect) pragmatic. Abortion is undesirable for everybody concerned and yes Serbia is a shrinking population as Pavle pointed out. However, the church would achieve far better ‘results’ were it to come out in public and place the emphasis / pressure on the elite and not on the public (particularly women).
That means shaming politicians by saying that certain individuals / parties dont have family friendly policies. What people need is not platitudes about morality and sin. They need to be able to afford to have children. If they dont have the financial means to support children then they will not. Further, as we know increasing pressure in the family due to lack of funds – state enterprise workers losing their jobs, low pay etc might actually cause more families to break up, further harming the fabric of Serbian society.
Also interesting were some comments I read by members of the clergy in the daily Danas. It was claimed that individualism and rationalism was in some way to blame for hatred that appeared in the wars of the former Yugoslavia. The theory offered was that the individual cut himself off from his brother man and desired different states / nations. Not at all a good theory because it is / was the individual who was the least likely to buy into warmongering. It is the individual who least buys into stories of how different one ethnic group / religion is different from another. It is the individual who is least interested in alleged (imagined)differences between people perpetuated by followers of one philosophy or another.
It was the individual who would have most reservations on the battlefield in the wars of the 90’s.
I dont pretend to know the theory behind rationalism in the theocratic sense. Perhaps some of these criticisms from the church are valid.
But my overall impression is of an institution that seems to be out of touch with practical everyday life. Then again thats a general statement about most organised religion.
I tried not to comment this article, but… It is wrong on so many levels. First of all, is it really possible to say that a group of circa 8 million people is so homogeneous as to have an identity of its own?
1) Religion – don’t ever forget that Serbs are just baptized pagans. The same way our ancestors moved to Christianity, we can move away from it. The entire idea of “one people” – “one church” is reminiscent of the Middle Ages.
Besides, for most of us, the time when “Serbian identity” was supposedly pushed under a carpet is as much of personal identity as anything. Why would I identify with Nemanjićs or Serbs from some other period, and not with my parents and grandparents?
2) Patriarchal values are bad, mmmmkey?
3) Our ancestors gave up on the Glagolitic script, so what? Personally, I’m for laissez-faire when it comes to scripts, but I simply cannot understand how can somebody identify with a script!? I have always read books for what’s written in them, not for the printing font used.
4) First of all, Serbia was never “under communism”. It was perhaps “under communists”, but the word you are looking for is “socialism”. Second of all, what Serbian traditions were banned at the time?
Many traditions found in Serbia are a mix of paganism and Christianity. From dodole, to slavas to Christmas, and as far as I know, none of them were banned.
Perhaps I’m just insecure with my national identity. But that’s because I know that whichever nation you pick, you’ll find more shit and bad things they’ve “collectively” done, than good things. I refuse to be a part of it.
‘Perhaps I’m just insecure with my national identity. But that’s because I know that whichever nation you pick, you’ll find more shit and bad things they’ve “collectively” done, than good things. I refuse to be a part of it.’
You touched upon a key point. The (healthy) nationalist understands that people have opted out of national identity altogether for a number of reasons but for them above all its the shame concerning Serbian policies / conduct of the 1990’s (ie some DSS, SPO types and almost all DemoChristians). But what they dont quite understand is the idea that some people feel no need to identify with figures of their own country / ethnic group from the past. Some of them believe that this is unhealthy, dare I say, Godless too.
So some of the more enlightened nationalists (with their still limited scope for understanding) have now gathered around the idea of a national figure that was untainted in the bloody break up. Enter Aleskandar Karadjordjevic. They think that this will rescue some of the lost souls who have felt (nationalist of course) self disgust – who will then return to the fold.
Now, I’m not against the reintroduction of a Spanish or British type monarchy and actually think that financially it might be of benefit to Serbia as a whole. Nor am I against lost souls and others that need these types of figures, from being directed to this healthier type of nationalism. And I think that Aleskandar is probably a decent guy – and that the often heard criticism against him is not very relevant in the debate concerning the monarchy.
You would never think that underneath all of this I’m quite traditional
I am fairly amused about the fact that here we are, a bunch of Serbs, both at home and abroad, discussing the Serbian national identity. This is quite telling, particularly because historically during the lifespan of Yugoslavia it was precisely Serbs who did not promote their national identity. Rather, it was the Serbs who sublimated their national (Serbian) identity to the overriding identity of Yugoslavia. What is even more interesting is that during Yugoslavia’s lifespan, every other national identity included in the country was not only maintained, but fostered — intensely, in fact — by the same factions that then produced their respective secessions. Serbs were Yugoslavs first, Serbs second, and it was that attitude that distinguished and separated them more from the rest of the former “Yugoslavs” than their Serbianism ever did. And yet it was this very Serbianism that was held against the Serbs at every step in the dismantalling of Yugoslavia, and fanned from outside until it would finally catch flame, so that it could be turned against us.
Serbs were and still are the least “nationalistic” of the former Yugoslavia’s people and the ones that were most prepared to protect and defend Yugoslavia as a country — that’s why Serbs had to be demonized and brought to their knees, so that this country that they would have defended would lose its defense and collapse as planned. The irony of this is that Serbs should now be fishing around for their “identity,” which was always there, under the surface for anyone of them that wanted it. A worse irony is that some Serbs (you know who you are) have almost eagerly accepted and taken onboard the false, demonized image of Serbs and Serbia and grab every opportunity to condemn your nationality, yourselves.
Blackbird, you know, the prelude to SFRY was a dictatorship under a Serbian king (bganon, which is an answer to your post too
) — sure something had to give in if we were not to continue the trend after the war. Serbs have been submitting to the idea of South Slavic identity back in 1920s in order to justify the Greater Serbian project that the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes would’ve “ideally” been.
And Serbs were “demonized” in 1990s because of Srebrenica, siege of Sarajevo, shelling of the Croatian coast, flagrant violation of human rights of the Albanians in Kosovo (something that has been going on since 1912… e.g. attacks of Gusinje and Plav in 1919, colonization of Kosovo without regard to current inhabitants, etc.), in your face display of xenophobia in every shape and form on the streets of Belgrade, and not because of me or CNN.
And that’s not a uniqueness of Serbia — every national identity is bound to carry that burden. Serbs just happen to have been on the display a lot, lately.
Dejan,
The Serbs were demonized long before Srebrenica, and Srebrenica was used to escalate that demonization. The entire truth about Srebrenica will be long in coming (and not from the west or Bosnia), but if you actually research it you will see for yourself that it is not a black and white issue. That said, I will be the first to say that any Serb who committed a war crime should be thrown into prison and never be let out again. I don’t support any war crimes, done by anyone.
Whatever crimes were committed by Serbs, they have been exploited to the hilt by the media, whereas an equivalent if not larger number of war crimes by other sides in these conflicts are buried so that hardly anyone should know about them. This brings to mind, for example, sob stories on CNN during the bombing, showing poor elderly women crying over their dead and the audience being told that they were muslim women whose families had been killed by Serbs, and then when the camera panned away from the old women’s faces one could see that they were standing and crying next to graves with crosses on them!
How much time have you personally spent in Kosovo? How often have you interacted there with Kosovo Serbs and Kosovo Albanians? You speak with such authority on this subject, one can’t help ut wonder what is your personal experience. And why is it that you are so ready and willing to recite atrocities, real and invented, done on the part of Serbs but you never mention any done to Serbs. I am not talking about promoting a kind of moral equivalency of one side’s crimes for another’s. What gets me is this apparently growing self-hatred tendency in Serbia’s young people, or if not that then a tendency to separate themselves as “not like” the rest of the Serbs. If this is what I’m seeing more and more of, then Serbs, in this mad, desperate need to win western approval, really are a conquered people again, albeit by a new enemy.
Bganon,
Christianity is not a mathematical formula, which defines whether you will go to heaven or not. A person can be a sinner his whole life, but if at one moment he finds the true connection/love with God, he may end up in heaven. If on the other hand side, a person is following all of the rules proposed by the church, but if at no point of time he makes that love with God, he may end up in hell. Only God knows the answer, and it is up to us to study and Gods messages, and the interpretations of these messages.
If everything was black and white, that is go to Church every Sunday, fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, pray X number of times, and you will go to Heaven, it would be very easy. As a matter of fact, Christ came down to earth and sacrificed Himself for the human kind in order for our sins to be forgiven. All He wanted in return was our love.
The point I am making is that we are all not the same, we all have our own ways and pace of believing and loving God. Just as two brothers show their love in a different way to their mother, that’s how we human beings are. As I said before, the Church is our pastor/ captain ensuring that we do not forget our love for God.
There is one religion which made it very simple, and it is Islam. According to Islam you have the set of rules and if you obey them you will end up in heaven. A lot of religions/sects coming from the Protestant Church picked up that attitude, where they replaced Khuran with the Bible, but they maintained the mathematical approach to the faith.
As for programming, we are programmed as soon as we are born. Starting from the discipline we receive from our parents, then school , and so on in life. If you live according to the program you are left “ free” if you disobey the program you end up in jail. Just as in school they teach you certain type of history, or better to say the preferred type of history,then why not introduce the preferred religion of the nation. I followed a British program of high school education, and I never learned about the crimes that were committed by the allies on Germans during the Second World War, or the real reason as to why the Islamic revolution occurred in Iran.
I am trying to stress out that having religion being thought to children in school is a good way of representing to them the faith the major part of the society believes in, and what our history and tradition believed in.
Dejan,
I will try to confront your comments, but given the fact that we are on totally opposite sides of thoughts, I think this will be a hard task to get an understanding from your side.
1)Then according to your philosophy we should also have holidays for Bayram, Hindu religious festivals and so on. Yes I agree circa 8 million people are not homogeneous, but at least 5 million of those declare themselves as believers of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
Having a national identity does not mean that you have to be identical to somebody, but that you share the similar if not the same values, faith, tradition, physical characteristics, temper, etc. I am sure that just by looking at you I would be able to say that you are different than somebody coming from Africa
2)Why are patriarchal values bad? You didn’t respond.
3)I am not sure if our ancestors gave up the Glagolitic script or did they receive the Cyrillic writing as the first script. I admit I don’t know, but just the way Vuk Karadzic modified the Serbian language for better( even though that there are disputes that Serbian language became poorer due to this change), I am sure we took the Cyrillic language because at the point of time we found that it was better than Glagolitic scrypt. However I do not see in what way is latin writing better than Cyrillic. Maintaining both scripts makes us only more rich as a nation.
4)Slava was not a very favorable event. Saying I am a Serb was considered as a sin, going to Church was considered as a possible traitor. You say this was not banned, yes not officially, but you would be asked for an “informative” interview by DB, if you forced those religious traditions. My grandfather was a colonel in the army, and my great-grandmother refused to give up the tradition of going to the Church. She took my mother one day, and my grandfather made a big deal that he would lose his job if somebody found out that his daughter went to church. Why is that, if the so called socialist system was so free?
And lastly I would like to confront you on your last comment:
“And Serbs were “demonized” in 1990s because of Srebrenica, siege of Sarajevo, shelling of the Croatian coast, flagrant violation of human rights of the Albanians in Kosovo (something that has been going on since 1912… e.g. attacks of Gusinje and Plav in 1919, colonization of Kosovo without regard to current inhabitants, etc.), in your face display of xenophobia in every shape and form on the streets of Belgrade, and not because of me or CNN.”
Its very funny that only the Serbs have been “demonized” and nobody else that took part in those wars. Lets not forget that Naser Orilic was freed of guilt on the crimes committed on Serbs. Did you know that 3 thousand Serbs in the villages around Srebrenica were murdered on Easter a year before Srberenica massacre occurred. And yet no western official went to pay tribute to that. I don’t even remember anybody condemning that. How about 500 thousand Serbs refugees from Krajna? How about the Hagues ignorance of the massacres video on Serbs in Krajna? How about the set up of Racak?
Please tell me what colonization of Kosovo?
And believe it or not I am not for Radicals, but I refuse to categorize the Serbs as demons and the other angels. Let me ask you, did Nato bomb Serbia in order to stop Milosevic from “ massacring “ the Albanians, or was it done in order to give the Albanians a second country? The way US is running it politics, it appears to me to be the second.
Luckily for you have never experienced what xenophobia means. How about having 10 thousand skinheads marching in front of student dorms, where it is known that only foreign students live, with paroles “ Germany to only to Germans!” This happens every year on Hitler’s birthday in Germany, the country that is taking over the presidency of EU.
In Belgrade I know for fact many Albanians, Muslims and Croats that lived in that city with perfectly no problems during the 90s. I also know that Sandzak was recruiting young men on the soil of Serbia to fight on the Bosnian army’s side, and yet these “demon” Serbs did nothing to that area.
Please put heavy emphasis on this last sentence:
I do not say that we Serbs are angels, but the other conflicting nations are no better than us. Its not so black and white, as the West and CNN seems to show it.
Bganon,
I think that we both share the same view about Monarchy. From the managements point of view, it s better that we have somebody with a vision for a life time rather than a president with a vision for the next four years. Having a democratic parliament and a king, is the best balance.
Dejan,
The demonization of Serbs started long before the recent wars, by the communist party. Now, I was really upset by your last comment, it was full of racist prejudices.
Now, you mentioned that the Kingdom of SHS was a prolongued version of greater Serbia. Let’s do a history class: The Kingdom of SHS was formed when the deputies of the south Slavic lands of Habsburg monarchy came to Belgrade and asked Crown Prince Aleksandar to unite them with the Kingdom of Serbia. Before that, the parliament of the State of SHS reached a decision for this unification. Afterwards, the centralized character of the Kingdom was created in the common parliament by a democratic vote. Yes, the Croat members were boycoting the vote, but the quorum was enough. Only to mention that those same Croat deputies were the same that agreed with the unification. Do we talk about Serbian hegemony when the ethnic structure of the Kingdom was in favor of Serbs? Not to mention the attempt of the Croats to change the structure during the NDH, which they partially achieved through genocide.
Then you talk about colonists on Kosovo-Metohija. Would you consider me as a Serb living in Germany to be a colonist. In every single state in the earth there are internal migrations, which is a normal phenomena, but it seems to me that when Serbs do it, it’s bad and evil. For me this sounds again like racism.
Let me tell you another thing. Before 1912, the Ottoman authorities favored the Albanian population in Kosovo-Metohija. Austrian intelligence recorded that from 1878 until 1912, more than 400.000 Serbs were forced to leave their homes thanks to Albanian paramilitaries, sponsored by the Ottoman authorities. Not to mention the role of SS Skanderbeg during WWII, the favorable position of the Yugo Communists after WWII and the prohibition of Serbs returning to their homes. And not even to mention the systematic ethnic cleansing occuring since 1981 (case Martinovic rings a bell?).
The point of this story is, I don’t say that Serbs are angels, but neither are the others and to these late conflicts there are reasons that can be traced far in the past and as Blackbird already said, nothing is black and white as it seems. It is up to you to open your eyes and leave your prejudices outside. Until then, I would like to ask you to restrain from racist remarks.
Ivan re christianity I’m sorry but I simply dont agree. Have you read the bible? I dont say this in an offensive way but I can start quoting the bible ‘its easier for a man to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven’ for example if you want.
There are rules, there are commandments. If you are takling about interpreting the bible in your own way that isnt mainstream christianity. Well as you know organised religion in Serbia is quite unforgiving on this point. Apart from the official religions everything else is seen as a sect. If you are softer on this point then your view differs from official christian (orthodox and catholic) thinking and is closer to say Anglican or moderate American religion.
I dont accept that one can butcher for example hundreds of people, causing unknown suffering to perhaps thousands of relatives and then go to heaven. If one can do this, well we might as well just throw away the bible, do as much evil as possible then in the final seconds of our lives repent (our ‘death’ insurance policy) and everything is ok.
I’m not sure I understand your mathematical references to Christianity implying that modern Christianity in some way coped Islam. The facts dont bear it out. The Old Testament is more hardline than the New Testament. Islam, as you know is also a relatively modern religion.
It seems to me that traditional christianity is much more this mathematic formula rather than the other way round.
‘I followed a British program of high school education, and I never learned about the crimes that were committed by the allies on Germans during the Second World War’
Good point, you just made a great argument for me! I think this is whats wrong with society and dont think that more programming of either one religion or one version of history helps society or encourages us to move towards the truth. Instead we become victims of a form of propoganda. By the way in the school I attended the teacher was a (democratic) socialist so he presented alternative viewpoints. We were told about the British bomber harris and Dresden. Are you saying it was wrong for this history teacher to teach us the truth about allied war crimes and not to ‘present the major part of what our history and tradition believed in’?
In short, what do you advocate if the truth gets in the way of history and tradition?
Cvijus, I’m very sorry if my comment came off as racist. My intention was opposite — to show that you are always on the losing side when you align with a nation — everybody has done a crapload of bad stuff.
(Re Kosovo colonization – Albanians were forced out of their homes, where Serbs moved in, especially the army… This has been going on for a while etc… I’ll try to write something about such stuff — on both sides — on my blog soon, because we don’t really agree on factual information there).
Ivan, I’ve physically experienced xenophobia, in Belgrade too. But, I’ve also “attended” Fred Phelps’ rallies, so I do know that it all happens at every point of the planet.
I don’t identify myself as a Serb (I fill in the “nationality” field with undecided) — partly because I think its fruitless to identify with any nation, and partly because, if you counted my blood cells carefully, you’d see I’m not particularly Serbian
And I don’t identify myself as Orthodox Christian because I’m not, my parents aren’t, my grandparents weren’t, etc….
And as far as patriarchy goes: it’s an idea that a man (pater – father) should “govern” the family, and thus the society as a whole. I’m personally a feminist and support not even nominal equality of genders, but positive discrimination of women… If you don’t already agree that patriarchy is bad, I doubt my arguments would help.
maybe with yahoo messenger
Bg Anon,
The common misinterpretation of Christianity is to treat it mathematically, as you already said, kill hundreds and then 5 min before you finish your life redempt and all is well. That is wrong. Christianity is a philosophy, I would say.
A true believer, when he accepts the biblical norm, subconscuesly he will adapt his life to the Christian norms and he will know what is good and wrong. The Christian philosophy is unique in the way that it is above the earthly values of interest. Accepting Christ means taking over norms and changing your life style, whether you go every Sunday to church or not, it is up to the individual. What is essential is to believe and numbers don’t apply there.
Personally I agree with you cvijus – and would add that religion should be something personal and one should not need human ‘intermediaries’ to have a relationship with God. Therefore a true relationship with God can be established without following a mathematical formula. That, though is my personal opinion and is not shared by much of organised religion.
I suppose my example of a war criminal repenting is a bit extreme, (although, I’m sure there are war criminals who think of themselves as religious, more fool them) but I remember attending one of these born again christian gatherings once upon a time. I can only remember thinking what a bunch of hyprocites some of them were. I mean nice people generally but where is the justice or fairness in 50-something people who repented yesterday lecturing 20-something members of the group on pre-marital sex, sin and everything else. The older members of this group saw that I had a problem but I didnt want to tell them ‘what right do you have to live a life of sin, suddenly repent and now issue instructions to young people on how to live their lives when you yourself did no such thing up until yesterday?’. Some of those young people were very vulnurable, damaged – for example there was one girl who was the daughter of a muslum cleric.
As you point out though, one cannot be a hyprocrite about this, there are principles, philosophy that must be subscribed to, or at least one should make a true effort to subscribe to these principles. I do believe that one must make a serious attempt to change ones lifestyle if one claims to be a christian. I’m afraid that most people dont understand this and dont even make an attempt to change. Like I said many people, unfortunately want to ‘cover their bases’ and kid themselves that they are real christians.
I have known people who are atheists but live their lives by a moral philosophy that is equivalent to that of Christianity. Some follow no political group any more than a religious one, but one or two have been young communists — young and idealistic and believers in the pure sort of communism that the world has never seen and no doubt never will. These people have grown older, reliquished their communistic ideals because life experience has taught them to do so, but they remain “Christian” in their attitudes toward others. What I am saying may at first thought sound weird, but if you think about it I’m sure you can agree that it does not take a belief in any kind of god to be Christian-like. It takes a belief in mankind and it requires a selflessness that many a so-called Christian who has feathered his nest at the expense of others, even by the exploitation of others, doesn’t have. Therefore, there are many self-proclaimed Christians that I think are nothing of the kind, and quite a lot of people who never go to church (or do go but remain nonbelievers — going there for the ceremony, the reaffirmation of human traditions, the music, or whatever) who are truly Christian in their outlook on life. I, personally, don’t believe that if God had one of each kind standing in front of him on judgment day he would choose the selp-proclaimed Christian living an unchristian life over the avowed atheist who lived what was essentially a Christian life without ever uttering a prayer or donating to a church.
Sorry folks , the overload at my work has made me unable to answer the comments in a prompt manner. I hope this month I will have more time.
BGanon,
Regarding your question if I read the Bible, my answer to you is yes. And the quote you put can be interpreted in many ways. I am not really good at quoting the Bible, but do you remember the pages where Christ was condeming the pharisee for being not true in their hearts. For following all of the principles and rules, but in their hearts they were dishonest. Or do you remember the part where Christ said that he didnt come to earth to save the healthy, but to save the sinners. That to me is the phenomenon to Christianity , where following the rules does nothing to you if your heart is not pure. I share the opinion Cvijus has posted, and I think he beautifully stated the following:
“ ...The Christian philosophy is unique in the way that it is above the earthly values of interest. Accepting Christ means taking over norms and changing your life style, whether you go every Sunday to church or not, it is up to the individual. “
As for your experience witht the funeral, i fully agree with you. I think that old people have the need to share their experiences and draw up lessons from them and pass that knowledge to the young people. However they tend to lecture them and not advise them. They do not understand that in many cases its the young people who need to experience life to come to that same conclusion they came to.
Dejan,
Everybody has their right to feel how ever they feel and to what ever they belong. Remember the scene from “ Lepa Sela Lepo Gore” when Brzis friends came to visit him in the hospital while Brzi was in coma, and when they were leaving Bjelogrlic asked them about their nationality, and they replied “ NNN Narcoman”. Recently I heard that one guy in Serbia decided to be an India, thats his personal right. But you cant condemn those that chose to be Serbs, even if they come from mixed marriges. You cant say that these people are primitive, or uncivilized, or xenophobic, just because they want to be what their ancestros were. After all german is a Deutsche, a French is a French, and just recently we have a new idetnity which is the Americans. Given the fact that you spend in USA some time , you must remember this phrase “ God save America”. Is that as primitve as “ Sa verom u Bog za Kralja i Otadzbinu” ( In the faith in God for the King and the fatherland).
As for patriachy, you are looking at just one side of the coin. The evil man is the ruler, the evil men who is abusing his wife and kids, locks them in the basesment and has many mistresses , and treats his wife as a slave. Yes this phenomenon existed and will unfortinately exist, but then add Christianity to his whole picture and you will see how it turns around. You will see that a man carries the responsibility to maintain his family healthy, happy. You will see that the men in fact is the servant and protector of the family. And the woman is also there to protect and care for the family but from a different sphere. Just as the man is there to ensure her happiness so is the woman there to ensure mans happiness. Not because of some crazy in love feeling, but out of love, respect and dignity of the family as a whole. Thats is my philosphical approach to it, and with this approach, these two people are not any more individuals, but one unity each acting independent but for the benefit of the unity. The phenomenon that is happening outside of the patriachalic points of views, is that these two individuals are now acting only to maximize their individual goals,while the unitys goal is left behind. One part in the Bible comments about the marrige, with the meaning that mans body is not his any more but of wife, and wifes body is not hers anymore but of men.
Blackbird,
I cant speak of what might God do, whether one way is right and the other way is not. and I do agree with you that a lot of people do live a Chrisitian life, but they neglect God as part of their life. Here comes another question though. Do these people neglect God because they feel they dont need Him, or is it because they themselves feel that they are Gods ( with technological advances one really feels powerful). But the question I pose to my fellow athiests is , if the goal of my life is just a grave, then why bother living this moral life? I never got a reasonable answer, it was all like, well the love for humanity, civilization etc, but it was always love that was the answer. And I pose to you a question, what is love then?
Cvijus,
Its as if you were reading my thoughts with your comment.
Ivan just a quick note – I was not attending a funeral, I was attending a (born again) christian meeting!
Bg Anon,
come on man, I waiting some articles on your B92 blog. Hurry up
Cheers
Cvijus, I’m not sure it will happen soon although I must admit there are a lot of interesting things going on.
Anyway I thought you preferred other ‘company’ at the B92 blog
(bganon exits in a self pitying, neglected fashion…)
Bg Anon,
Better say, I preffered the other company cause the quarels were much much better
Don’t think that this means that the quality of your blogs are lower than the others. Quite honestly, you were among the few ones to adress real issues. Anyway, while drinking the pint in the pivnica last December I promised you some support, so… come on, I’ll keep your back from the “civilo-fascists” & Co.
So… get to work boy
Bg Anon,
Perhaps further research will eventually enlighten us about where our morality comes from.
http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health/feeds/hscout/2007/01/22/hscout601147.html
Why Do Good? Brain Study Offers Clues
01.22.07, 12:00 AM ET
MONDAY, Jan. 22 (HealthDay News) — People may not perform selfless acts just for an emotional reward, a new brain study suggests.
Instead, they may do good because they’re acutely tuned into the needs and actions of others.
Scientists say a piece of the brain linked to perceiving others’ intentions shows more activity in unselfish vs. selfish types.
“Perhaps altruism did not grow out of a warm-glow feeling of doing good for others, but out of the simple recognition that that thing over there is a person that has intentions and goals. And therefore, I might want to treat them like I might want them to treat myself,” explained study author Scott Huettel, an associate professor of psychology at Duke University Medical Center, in Durham, N.C.
He and lead researcher Dharol Tankersley, a graduate student at Duke, published their findings in the Jan. 21 online issue of Nature Neuroscience.
For decades, psychologists and neuroscientists have puzzled over the tendency of humans to engage in altruistic acts — defined by Huettel’s group as acts “that intentionally benefit another organism, incur no direct personal benefit, and sometimes bear a personal cost.”
Experts note that altruism doesn’t seem to provide individuals with any survival edge, so how and why did it evolve?
To help solve that puzzle, Heuttel’s team had a group of healthy young adults either engage in a computer game or watch as the computer played the game itself. In some sessions, the computer and participants played for personal gain, while in other sessions, they played for charity.
The researchers used high-tech functional MRI (fMRI) to observe “hot spots” of activity in the participants’ brains as they engaged in these tasks.
Participants were also asked to complete a questionnaire aimed at assessing their personal levels of selfishness or altruism.
Huettel said he was surprised by the study results.
“We went into this experiment with the idea that altruism was really a function of the brain’s reward systems — altruistic people would simply find it more rewarding,” he said.
But instead, a whole other brain region, called the posterior superior temporal cortex (pSTC), kicked into high gear as altruism levels rose.
The pSTC is located near the back of the brain and is not focused on reward. Instead, it focuses on perceiving others’ intentions and actions, Huettel said.
“The general function of this region is that it seems to be associated with perceiving, usually visually, stimuli that seems meaningful to us — for example, something in the environment that might move an object from place to place,” he explained.
This type of perception would have allowed humans’ more primitive ancestors to quickly pick out a potential threat — a crouching lion, for example — from amid a mass of less important stimuli.
It’s much less clear why pSTC activity gets ramped up in the brains of altruistic people, however. “That was really surprising to us,” Huettel said.
The researchers found that pSTC activity was highest when study participants were observing the computer play the game on its own — not when they were playing themselves. “That gets to this idea of agency — watching somebody else play the game,” Huettel said. “You are thinking, ‘Oh, the computer pressed the button — somebody else did that.’ “
The bottom line, he said, is that altruism may rely on a basic understanding that others have motivations and actions that may be similar to our own.
“It’s not exactly empathy,” he said, but something more primitive. “We think that altruism may have grown out of — at least in part — such a system.”
Another expert said the Duke study raises even more questions than it answers.
“It’s a really interesting study,” said Paul Sanberg, director of the Center of Excellence for Aging and Brain Repair at the University of South Florida College of Medicine, in Tampa. “It would be really interesting, now though, to see if people who had damage to that [brain] area were much less altruistic.”
Huettel said he’s pondered that possibility. “For example, we don’t know if people who are sociopaths, or people who are autistic, might show differences in this region,” he said. “It’s a good question, but we don’t have data that shows anything one way or another. This is just a jumping-off point.”
Sanberg said the study also showed only an association between heightened pSTC activity and altruism, not a direct cause-and-effect relationship. “That needs further study,” he said.
But the Florida neuroscientist said this type of work is helping unravel the mysteries of human consciousness and behavior.
“These functional studies with high-level human behaviors are shedding important light on the contribution of different brain areas,” Sanberg said.
Find out more about the human brain at Harvard University.
Interesting article blackbird. For the record the alturistic switch in my brain is fully functional! But yes its true, it gives me a bit of a kick to be good (or to think of the needs of those less fortunate than myself).
But still I’m much more inclined to want to help those of a similar disposition (way of thinking) rather than the selfish get ahead types who dont give a damn about the less fortunate – or indeed the less fortunate who dont give a damn about anybody but themlsevles.
Last year we have published in Holland and Belguim a book called: who killed Slobodan Milosevic and…why? by the Dutch autor ROBIN DE RUITER. This book was also published in Italian and German. Soon a Chech version will be available too. We just have finished the Serb translation of the book and we are searching for an serious editor in Beograd. Please send us your address by email so we can contact you.