Action and Reaction
Couple of days ago, early in the morning, we (when i say we:, i mean the citizens of Serbia) indirectly elected Tomislav Nikolic as speaker at the parliament of Serbia. Nikolic is the unofficial leader of the biggest Serbian ultra-right populistic party in Serbia, SRS, and the biggest party in Serbia in general. What this means is that we have elected a person with national-socialistic ideas for the head of the parliament and that is something that can’t go unnoticed in the world. So let’s see the reactions.
Russia was apparently the first one to congratulate us, without even being sarcastic, but European Union and the United States seem to have something against this.
EU postponed visa agreement signing which would make it easier for certain groups of citizens to get visas.
Council of Europe postponed the symbolic flag raising in Belgrade, i think probably because they don’t want to see Nikolic near the flagpole.
Dinar started losing its value so the National Bank had to intervene – current value is around 80 dinars for 1 EUR, let’s hope it stays that way Nope, it’s dropping again, now it’s 83 dinars for 1 euro.
Belgrade stock exchange shares started dropping, and one of the analysts actually calculated that the election of Nikolic cost Serbia half of billion euros in one day.
Foreign investments are currently on some kind of standby, i guess they are waiting to see if it’s safe to continue dealing with Serbia while it’s such an unstable situation.
The blogosphere reacts as well: Lucija says that she is puzzled with the latest situation development:
Perhaps this explains the increase in my friends’ jocular remarks about who I’ll marry and take with me when I head back home in the fall
East Ethnia gives his suggestion for the new government now that the new parliament speaker is already so ridicolous.
Frank tries to comfort us by predicting Nikolic will last on the position for mere six days (thanks, Frank).
Marko is in one way happy that the situation is at least pretty clear now that Kostunica sided with Nikolic.
Douglas of Fistfull of euros is trying to find a better word for Nikolic than obnoxious – i suggest: dangerous?
If there are any more opinions out there, please share them in comments, this is what i could find after a quick browse.
Serbian blogosphere is also reacting, although not so much as one would expect, i guess the state of limbo is taking it’s toll:
Velickovic suggests forming a sort of coalition between DS, G17 and LDP in case radicals and DSS form the government.
Mooshema decided to open her blog for your spitting pleasure, (btw, it seems that this caused editors of Blogorola to delete her blog from their list?)
Rest of the Serbian blogosphere reactions you can find at the Serbian part of the Beograd 2.0.
The main guilty one in all this is, ironicly enough, not Nikolic but our so-called prime minister Kostunica, who made it possible for this guy to become head of the parliament.
Tweet
Srebrenica Resolution: What’s Serbian for ‘genocide’?
Berlusconi’s Photoshop trick: using Milosevic’s methods?
Not to believe. As if Serbia doesn’t want to smarten up and start taking rational decisions. Even though the position that Nikolic has gained has no executive powers that can influence our lives, the symbolism of his election is what annoyes me, and the fact that he was supported by DSS. Jeez, sometimes I think that how things have developed 5th October 2000 was merely a gathering of philatelists. We are returning to the age of backwardness and stupidity.
Nice roundup! Thanks for the links, and the mention. ;
)Just a minor correction: I was just observing that Nikolic won’t likely be parliamentary speaker for long — this time round! Assuming parliament does indeed get dissolved, and after any early elections, well…he might very well be back in the same spot.
From which, as Eric and I talked about in the comments, he can do quite some damage, at least to the legislative role in reforms.
But I posted more in the vein of “cheer up – it could be worse. Could be raining…” (cf. the film Young Frankenstein and the late Marty Feldman as Igor. ;)
Keep up the excellent blogging!
Well I watched all of this farce live a couple of nights back. Talk about fiasco. For an election trick this was pretty low by DSS.
I still dont really believe that DSS are serious about this and think its partly about putting pressure on DS to cave in on giving DSS the ministries they want.
However, I think the people at DSS are too stupid to realise that they run a serious danger of shooting themselves in the foot. Its clear that they are willing to risk Serbias future for the sake of their party but if they continue like this the cost will be to be swallowed up by the Radical Party. That would be a fatal mistake as at least a quarter of their voters gravitate towards the so called democratic block and why vote for the copy (DSS) when you can have the real thing SRS.
Their previous equidistance between DS and DSS being dropped, they risk alienating uniting DS, G17 and LDP meaning they will no longer have a choice but to form some kind of coalistion with SRS.
By the way part of the problem (a small part) is the fact that DS has taken so much of the centre ground. This has left DSS nowhere to go but to the right.
There is a chance that the election will be held again. Normally I would say that at the last minute common sense will reign – and it normally would, but Kostunica mistakenly thinks he could run on a Kosovo ticket and pick up the extra votes he will lose to DS. He is sadly mistaken because the radicals will pick up these votes. So there is a good chance that even if elections were repeated the same situation would come about – nobody could rule. In the event of another election after that I expect the political sytem in Serbia to become completely polarised.
By then support for smaller parties may vanish completely as people consider it a wasted vote. It will be a straightforward battle between DS and SRS (and perhaps their sattelite parties). DS would have a slight advantage in that support from the ‘democratic’ block is still higher than for the ‘patriotic’ block. But ‘democratic’ block voters get notoriously sick of the situation and might decide not to vote at all…
Victor,
I’d really interested in seeing the list of facts that makes Nikolic a nationnalist-socialist, i.e. a Nazi. Kindly elaborate with some specifics.
By the way, credit where its due. Vladeta Jankovic (DSS) didnt turn up to vote. Other DSS members did not have the balls not to turn up and I suspect at least some of them held their noses whilst voting for the radicals. Its a pity that people like Jankovic are marginalised in DSS.
If another election is held do you reckon that DSS will pay for this?
How many people vote for DSS expecting them to team up with the Radicals?
Reading bganon’s post Kostunica thinks he can gain any votes lost on this by playing up the Kosovo issue but wasn’t that already a major election issue?
I’ll be happy to elaborate, but first i have to go change my dinars i got from the Jews into Euros, because now it’s 83 dinars for 1 euro.
This might be of interest. From a writer who rarely mentions Yugoslavia and was against the bombing in 99
He describes calls to arrest Mladic as ‘uncontroversial’— he didn’t know what kind of argument he was getting into
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2074340,00.html
Ian ‘but wasn’t that already a major election issue?’.
Not really, not as much as some believe it was. Firstly d-day on Kosovo is closer now. Secondly this will be Kostunica’s ammunition to use if LDP forms an electoral coalition with DS. It will hurt DS even if their official position on Kosovo is close to DSS’s. Thats why DS might resist a coalition with LDP or at least extract a promise from LDP to keep a lid on it – regarding the issue. DSS has been using plenty of patriotic rhetoric of late and its clear they will be willing to play the traitor card for all its worth in an election. You can expect that DSS will be talking about Kosovo practically every day of the campaign. They think this will trigger an emotional response causing people to vote for them. If anything that emotional response could well cause them to vote for SRS. Kind of like Milosevic in a way when he was in danger of being swallowed up by SRS. Kostunica is no Milosevic though (in terms of political cleverness).
I’d say that about a third of DSS supporters are happy to go with the radicals, a third wont be upset about it – although they might worry about the future of the party, the remaining third are more inclined towards the democratic party and wont be happy with whats going on. Not really scientific but think that my estimate is about right.
One should remember that DSS was formed by DS members who broke away. The ‘problem’ is in recent years they have moved to the right, their more moderate supporters have defected to DS and G17 and those ‘democratically’ inclined are now a minority within DSS.
Also a huge problem is the Jocic lobby inside DSS. Jocic is one of the most disliked ministers in the government. He is interior minister but even policemen laugh about his competence. However, Jocic made a number of crucial tactical moves inside DSS in recent years. He openly opposed Marsicanin’s candidacy (and therefore Kostunica) for President of Serbia in 2004 and the view inside the party is that he was right.
He also alligned himself with key party members on other issues most important being ensuring that Drakulic was not elected vice president of the party. Note Vladeta Jankovic supported Drakulic but had no support so was forced to leave Drakulic out to dry. Drakulic, by the way, I think is itching to get his own back on his former friend Kostunica. Its not all Jocic by the way – Nikitovic is another senior DSS advisor who delights in practicing machiavelian political tactics.
History has shown, by the way, that Kostunica has made a number of pretty big errors concerning his own party. This and the fact that DSS no longer has capable, well meaning senior players, worries me.
Lots of ‘by the ways’ there obviously I could do with a copy-writer
As usual, the sheep start chorusing “four legs good, two legs bad, four legs good, two legs bad”. Nikolić is the acting leader of the largest single party. He was elected Speaker of the Parliament. That is democracy. If anything, one would expect him to be forming a government, given that the SRS has 17 more seats than the DS.
All these economic indicators are falling mainly not because of Nikolić himself, but because of the anticipated agressive and anti-democratic reaction of the EU. It is already expressing its “concern”, calling off planned treaties etc. It’s simply outrageous intereference in the internal affairs of a sovereign and independent state, and in the democratic process. It comes as no surprise to me, given the “fair”, “honest” and “just” conduct of the EU and the Big 3 over the last two decades, but I’m happy that this situation is opening the eyes of at least some of the drugged up, brainwashed pro-EU Serbian masses.
Please don’t bother with the kneejerk accusations of being a Radical, supporter of Milošević etcetc it’s boring, and no, Serbia should not be a province of Russia, but neither should it be a colony of the EU…
Right on, Estavisti! Nice to hear some sense.
Estavisti: “All these economic indicators are falling mainly not because of Nikolić himself, but because of the anticipated agressive and anti-democratic reaction of the EU.”
Yes, BAAAD EU! BAAAD! You forgot to mention Kryptonite, as well. An advocate of the concept of Great Serbia is elected Speaker of the Parliament and you feel “outraged” because the EU is refusing to realise what a cute little teddy bear he actualy is. Get a grip, for God’s sake – will it EVER be our fault, from your point of view? Is it really that hard to accept the simple truth that sh** stinks and that unrestrained defecation sooner or later drives all nasally conscious beings away from you?
Blah, blah, blah…
And is your head, Nemanja, a funny shape to hold your convoluted point of view?
Get a grip! When will anything NOT be our fault, you self-loathing idiot?
Anybody who CAN’T see how maniupulated Serbia has been by the EU doesn’t see it because he WANTS that manipulation to go on. Why not move to Brussels and make a really good job of it? Perhaps you could worm your way in and help them to screw Serbia REALLY WELL!
Estavisti,
I don’t have anything against democracy, it’s Nikolic I’m complaining about, and about the fact that there are so many people who voted for him. In fact, it’s the democracy itself that gives me the right to complain.
About the claim that it’s all EU’s fault – i don’t understand, all they are doing is leaving us to mind our own business, isn’t that what you wanted in the first place? Apparently they think now that we are self-sufficient and decided to leave us alone. About time i say.
Viktor, I’m glad you’re discussing with people you disagree with (as usual). If both “sides” in Serbia were less paranoid of each other, the country could go far. Unfortunately, most prefer to discuss issues in the manner of spoilt children, whether it’s the Radicals in parliament or Nemanja here.
Do you not find it unacceptable that the foreign policy of the EU is based, at least partially, on who the bloody parliament speaker is? Can they at least make a pretence of respecting the fiction that Serbia is an independent state, and not a colony?
I don’t know how you got my views so wrong. Serbia can and should cooperate with the EU, of course as an unequal partner, but as a partner and not a colony. What they are doing is putting Serbian citizens in a cage (which is their right I suppose, in the same way I have the right to avoid Pakistani-owned shops), they are destabalising Serbia’s economy with their agressive rhetoric and they are dismembering a sovereign state in contravention of international law. They are not “leaving us alone”, they are attacking Serbia. I mean, right now as we speak, there are thousands of foreign troops in Serbia. I fail to see how this is “leaving us alone”. Or how Merkel being “worried” is leaving Serbia alone?
I really think a large number of people in Serbia have been totally broken mentally by the events and propaganda of the last 20 years. It’s like Helsinki syndrome, falling in love with the kidnapper. I really hope for some new political force to emerge, to clean the stables and return some self-respect to you guys, Putin or Dodik style…
Blackie: “Anybody who CAN’T see how maniupulated Serbia has been by the EU doesn’t see it because he WANTS that manipulation to go on.”
Yes. Give the girl a cigar!
Blackie: “...Why not move to Brussels and make a really good job of it? Perhaps you could worm your way in and help them to screw Serbia REALLY WELL!”
Hmm, no… I came to realize that severity of “patriotic” brain inflammation is directly proportional to the “patriot’s” distance from Homeland so I was thinking more something like the sunny California, maybe that would bring my poor soul back from the Dark Side – what do you think, could you help me out on that? I believe there’s no better way to spark up and KosMetize this rusty patriotic spirit, while cooling my juevos in the Pacific.
Estavisti,
sorry, but I still think you’re exaggerating and looking for guilt in all the wrong places. The demands of the EU are extremely simple: Mladić & no Radicals in the government; in other words: “Show us you can arrest one person suspected of commiting a serious crime against humanity and keep warmongers as far away as possible – then we can talk.” Perfectly logical to me.
self-loather,
When you go into debt helping out family members in Serbia because of the poor economy there, then you can lecture me about where I do or don’t live, and about the purity of my motivations.
There is a parable about giving a man a fish or teaching him to fish. Your way amounts to one sardine. The long term prospects for what you desire are more short sighted than you are willing to acknowledge.
If you want to trade places, let me know, but you’ll have to first endure walking with your family over the mountains of Slovenia as a small child at night to escape the persecution of Tito’s regime, followed by a 2.5 year subsistence existence for your whole family in one room in Austria while you wait for a chance to legally go to America, where you spend a decade watching your parents kill themselves working at any available job and still not having enough money to buy you a winter coat for the midwest winter. Now screw off.
So, Victor, are you going to stay in character and not backup what you say? I am sincerely interested. Enlighten us unenlightened ones…
The demands of the EU? The EU has no place to make “demands” regarding the internal affairs of a sovereign state.
It’s quite sad that you can’t see you are the mirror image of the Radicals. It’s very easy to criticise everything, that’s exactly what they do. It’s easy to hate your political opponents like them. Easy to be paranoid, gullible and taken in by cheap propaganda. Just like them, your “enlightenment” is because of your actual ignorance.
As for your anti-diaspora bullshit, just piss off. I’m not going to bare my soul here, but a lot of the people with “patriotic brain inflammation” are not in Serbia for very good reasons, as the above comment makes clear.
Out of interest, have you ever left Serbia, and if so, where have you been?
But isn’t EU making demands all the time really, to it’s member states and to those trying to enter EU? Surely you don’t mean those states inside the EU place their sovereigneity and integrity above EU’s sovereignity and integrity? Remember Austria and Heider and the threat to impose sanctions on them and how the Austrians had to re-think, for a bit at least, their choice of Heider?
EU is made to meddle in bussinesses of all member states and to stick it’s nose everywhere it wants really. All the member states of EU are EU’s colonies or provinces or whatever you wish to call it. In order to get something out of EU they all have to give something to the EU, and what they are giving is exactly their ‘sovereignity and integrity’.
If we don’t want that, than i guess we should say it loud and clear. But then there is a problem – we are not going to be EU’s colony, but solely the colony of DB and BIA.
If Nemanja is a mirror image of Radicals, that has to be good, right? I hope you have the same opinion of me really.
Blackbird, what exactly do you mean? What should i enlighted you about? If you mean that i’m going to post some of Nikolic’s nationalistic-socialist-populist statement here, you are wrong – that’s too easy and i don’t like easy assignments. In short – I already lived in Nikolic’s Serbia in the nineties, and i don’t want to have to do it again.
Estavisti, you don’t seem concerned that there is a difference between governments holding one another accountable for their actions and individuals determining their patterns of retail consumption. I’m puzzled also why you talk about your right to avoid Pakistani-owned shops. Why would you want to avoid Pakistani-owned shops (and incidentally how would you identify them)?
Viktor, just to clarify, Marko is no way happy with this outcome.
As for the rest of the discussion, yes, Serbia is, in a way, a democracy, and people of Serbia have the right to elect anyone as they have done done. And the elected representatives can than run the country in the way they see fit, as long as it’s done according to some rules and regulations. So basically Serbia, got what it wanted/ voted for. The fact that I and many others don’t like it is sad, but we are a minority, at the time being.
Now, what goes for Serbia goes for the EU. They too have the right to their policies and if their policy is “we don’t want to cooperate with Serbia if the radicals run it” then fine. It’s their right. We don’t have to do anything about. We are by no means obliged to do what they want. But for any action there are consequences. In a way it is blackmail, but in a way it’s not. Do you prefer the radicals in power or the EU? Choose. We can’t have both. It’s tough, but that’s life.
Victor, what you say is true, but firstly, Serbia is not in the EU yet, and secondly, the question presents itself: should Serbia join the EU if the EU is going to become the regulator of Serbian internal politics (and much else besides), over the will of the people? You may not care, but most Serbian citizens have no idea what they’re getting into with the EU. The EU is going to regulate, from Brussels, literally EVERYTHING in Serbia if the country joins the Union. How loud is the voice of 7.5 million in a crowd of 450 million? You know they’re trying to expand qualified majority voting all the time, which could impose things on Serbia even if 100% of its citizens are against? And no, you are not the mirror image of the Radicals, because unlike Nemanja you take the time to back up your wrong conclusions with reasons, and because we are discussing this right now
Owen, that analogy was simply to ilustrate that non-cooperation can be quite morally suspect. Of course the EU has the right to stop Serbian citizens travelling to EU countries, but no sane person would think that it is morally correct to make a country a cage.
Marko, not to blow your mind or anything, but how about neither the EU nor the Radicals?
Putting aside the recriminations I dont think any of us would choose this situation so nobody should blame one another.
The other night when I watched those members of parliament laughing and patting each other on the back it was sickening. To return to those proceedings and look at what is wrong / sick with Serbian politics.
Firstly the fact that dear Borka Vucic proposed that voting was public – cowards dont have a habit of voting with their conscience when they know their ‘employer’ will sack them if they contravene the party line. In these matters a secret ballot should be part of the god damn constitution.
Secondly MP’s have been receiving their (considerable) wages all along. Whilst some party leaders have been saying there is ‘all the time in the world’ to form a government – there is not lets be clear here, we have until next week, there is no personal incentive for them to do something good. They are allowed to form the impression that since their financial situation is good (no better, they didnt have to work or do anything) it quite obviously means that the country can wait as well.
Alongside this we have a storm about the fact that Kostunica wants to keep the aforementioned Jocic as Minister of police etc. Tadic makes a grave error in trying to use an argument to add weight to his claim that Jocic must not stay – he mentions Solana and the EU. Kostunica (allegedly, again this appeared in the media and it could have been leaked by Kostunica’s cabinet) reacts angrily. Then senior DSS party officials brief key DSS functionaries that this patriotic line is to be repeated over and over again. ‘We are not taking orders from Solana on internal affairs’ etc.
The fact is that regardless of the EU (I dont think we are talking just about the EU here, the US state department also stated concern on the election of Nikolic so we are talking about the US as well) this is yet again a failure of the Serbian political system and the key players within that system. This is the main issue for me.
Additionally when we talk about democracy, majorities and all of that. Let me again make this clear I voted at the referedum, I genuinely did this because thought it was the least worst option for the country. I am not a tribalist. However, one doesnt always have to accede to the majority in a democracy. I dont agree that the radicals are fascists but nevertheless will use a nasty analogy due to the majority principle. The Nazis of Germany were voted in by majority through a democracy. One cannot always put his arms up and respect the majority, sometimes that majority are deeply wrong. When you get to the stage where everything looks like its going to hell you have to stand up and tell them no. If things continue as they are people will be forced to choose.
Let me give another example of politicians that spoke about a majority recently. One might remember that DSS until a week or so ago were talking about how Kostunica had the right to be Prime Minister on account of the fact that a majority of parties supported Kostunica. They pointed to Ilic, G17 and even SPS. Now of course G17 have abandoned Kostunica all of a sudden that argument of principle was exposed as another bit of manipulation. Alongside this you had the so called sixth prinipcle which claimed that one cannot have both Prime Minister of a country and President – which contradicts the majority principle completely, if the public voted for both.
Sorry I seem to be targetting DSS so much (I prefer to spread blame more evenly) but the fact is they have been acting like scoundrels ever since the elections. I’d almost have preferred having no elections and keeping pre election DSS in power.
Estavisti: “Out of interest, have you ever left Serbia, and if so, where have you been?”
I usually don’t answer personal questions, but here it goes: South Africa (Johanesburg), Israel (Tel Aviv, Jerusalim), Greece (Athens), Russia (Moscow), Turkey (Kushadasi), Germany (Hamburg)...
Why?
Wow, what a battlefield.
I agree with Estavisti when it come to the scpticism on the EU. Many people have the misperception that being in the EU means lot’s of money and overnight everything is great. But few know that some regulations can destroy the economic segment of one country for the interest of a bigger one, and all this can be achieved regurarly through the qualified majority voting. Look at Bulgaria now, their entrance caused the prices to go rapidly up, whereas the salaries are the same. I would like for Serbia to be like Norway, but in the current position, joining the EU is unfortunatelly necessary.
As for the Nikolic election, no doubt it is democratic and expresses the will of the majority. However, the sole fact that it is a Radical on this position is what annoyes me. But in democracy we have to learn how to lose and to swallow the frog, as Djindjic used to say. But the greatest favor to Nikolic was done by the CoE who refused to raise the flag by the Parliament.
Аnd another thing:
Estavisti: “The EU is going to regulate, from Brussels, literally EVERYTHING in Serbia if the country joins the Union.”
Umm, is that a good or a bad thing? The real question here is: What is it that we actually want? Is it l’democracy pour l’democracy & l’integrity pour l’integrity or a Better Life™ for us, our families and our friends. What good is it if the price for preserving my “National Pride” is losing my personal, because I really don’t know how can anyone be proud of anything while standing in line for milk, sugar, cooking oil and gassoline…
Nemanja, I was just curious. A lot of the pro-EU diehards haven’t been anywhere except Montenegro and Turkey. Clearly you aren’t one of those. I’m glad you decided to join the discussion, but I see democracy doesn’t mean much to you. We had the royal dictatorship, Tito, Sloba, and now it comes down to civil servants in Brussels, eh? The argument you present comes down to “better to be with the bullies than to be bullied”. Read what you wrote: we have to join the EU because if we don’t they will impose sanctions and obstruct our progress! Doesn’t sound much like the kind of civilised organisation I would like to see Serbia in, somehow. Your pour scorn on my “national pride”, when I simply stand for basic civilised principles. Saying NO to the EU would not end in doom and gloom (in fact the opposite), as long as it was a Norweigan NO and not a Belarussian-style NO.
Cvijus, I was beginning to feel a bit lonely here…you’ve muddled up Đinđić‘s frog by the way…but otherwise I agree 100%. I’d just add that all this pro-EU fanaticism is strong because people always expect someone else to solve their problems, in this case an organisation most of them know next to nothing about.
There is little mention of it so thought I should put it up here.
Yesterday Tomislav Nikolic proposed cancelling potential elections and declaring a State of Emergency.
His reason (well his public reason) is Kosovo. The real reason is that under a S of E the Kostunica government could be supported by the radicals, plus they could silence criticism of government policies. This way any potential future election would only have one subject – Kosovo. But DSS know that in the end their supporters would abandon them despite the patriotic sentiment. It really is like this – if Kosovo is as important as DSS rhetoric then why dont they act as the radicals are suggesting? Otherwise, cut the crap. No, people arent that stupid, those that think Kosovo is the only / most important Serbian issue will vote radical and those who think Kosovo is one of many important issues wont be voting DSS any more.
http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/vesti/vest.php?id=33832
And I remember the days where the radicals were criticising the State of Emergency imposed after the Djindjic assasination – ostensibly on human rights grounds or at least saying that emergency was political.
Tadic and Kostunica are allegedly meeting today. Last chance saloon.
Sorry guys but I think this EU debate is only a side issue, one which wont be concerning Serbia perhaps for another decade.
Estavisti, hehe you’ve done it well all alone, but don’t worry. I was always a proponent of critical thinking and not of following blindely certain doctrines. Therefore, for some aspects I’m supportive and critical towards the EU, but for sure in an ideal situation I would preffer Serbia to be as Norway. However, many of the so-called democrats in Serbia have to learn what democracy realy is and how to behave democratically, since most of them view it just as a continuation of the Titoist times.
Nemanja, national pride is not connected to the situation. While waiting on the row for bread (which you aren’t) you can be nationaly proud. Since national pride is being proud of the past but also being eager for the future. If Djindjic didn’t have his national pride, he wouldn’t take over the task of leading the country and risk his life. National pride can also mean to do something for you country, NOT necessarily to go to war. A true patriot distinguishes himself in the bad moments for his nation/country. In a situation of waiting lines that you described you asked the question how can anyone be proud of anything: well there is another type of pride which is called dignity.
Hm, a Norwegian style NO doesn’t sound bad at all, but we are not Norway. And we won’t be any time soon. Especially if we are completely isolated either form the inside out or the outside in.
So Estavisti, I agree there are other options apart from the EU and the radicals, but let’s face it they are not very likely, and anyway we were talking only about these two, and they are simply not compatible.
The EU is by no means perfect, but in the real world it probably rates among the most decent places to live in, so let’s not get too utopian. Looking at the record of Serbs governing Serbia, an occasional nudge in a certain direction by Brussels may not be the worst that can happen.
That said, I’m sure 95% of this country’s population has no idea what the EU stands for, and if they did, most of them would probably reject it. It’s just that the way things are going we won’t even get a chance to find out.
Marko, we are not Norway true, but we will never become Norway while the two major currents in public life are defeatism/fatalism and the Radicals’ supporters’ uncontrolled anger and frustration. There are worse things than being in the EU, but why not aim for more, especially given the price they’ve set for making Serbia a undemocratically ruled province?
Cvijus, I agree wholeheartedly, again. The most ridiculous thing is that Serbian politics is divided into Democrats and Radicals/Socialists. Any party that participates in a democratic election (let alone one that gets the most votes) is “democratic”. Democracy isn’t an ideology, just a system of government. Orwell’s “Politics and the English language” should be required reading in Serbian schools, because this Newspeak is simply ridiculous: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
Estavisti, I think you misunderstood me: Democracy does mean much to me, but my only criterion when judging the actions of Serbian government, parliament & political “elite” in general, is whether those actions produce a better life (or opportunities, or self-respect, or whatever) for the citizens of Serbia or are they plain insane. If showing the middle finger to the EU will do us any good – fine; If giving a blowjob to Carla del Ponte is what it takes – fine again. Miloš Obrenović style, that’s what I’m talking about.
And this whole Integrity issue, it’s just like when you apply for a job: Do you go on the interview like a bum, in torn and filthy clothes, with a bloody kitchen knife in your hand and make strange noises whenever asked an unconvenient question, or do you take a bath, dress smart, watch your body language and do everything possible to leave the best impression? You could say: “Who are they to tell me how to dress and how to speak, Evil Corporations, I like it this way, this is me and I don’t care!”; but would it really be the Corporation’s “fault” if you got turned down? Every society has it’s own norms and if you refuse to realize that conforming doesn’t always mean humiliation, you’re probably not thinking clearly and forgetting what was it that you wanted from the Society in the first place.
Viktor,
In the time it took you to state why you won’t bother to answer my question you could have simply answered it. Apparently some sort of odd “principal” of yours is involved here, for which I wish you lots of luck in acquiring additional supporters of your views when you can’t be bothered to expand on them. All I wanted to be “enlightened” about is why an admittedly more extreme political party like the Radicals is equated in your eyes with fascist Nazis, because that’s what you, in fact, said. It could be argued that your opinion of the Radicals is extreme.
Barry Goldwater once made a wise and apt statement:
* I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!
What good alternatives to the pussillanimous Tadic can YOU offer? Even Kostunica has decided to bare his fangs at him and that’s why he supported electing Nikolic as Speaker — not because he necessarily favors the Radicals, but to show Tadic that he, Kostunica, isn’t going to allow himself to be railroaded by people with little or no principle, little or no self-respect.
You might have the right to aggitate for the EU in your misguided belief that it will improve the Serbian economy, but so have those who want to live in a self-respecting Serbia the right to fight for that. And however many Kandics and Biserkos, etc., claw at the Serbian soul, they won’t succeed in their revisionism of recent history unless your generation helps them by not looking beyond next week. You should be very careful what you wish for as there will be a price to pay for your children.
Nemanja, of course Serbia needs wily diplomacy and pragmatic foreign policies. The key word here is pragmatic – you actually seem to believe all this bullshit about democracy, freedom, the “European future of Serbia”. Look at Dodik, he knows the ledge – he keeps just on the right side of the “international community” (read: EU and US) while constantly, slowly, pushing it back.
There is some major confusion here about Norway.
Most Brussels directives relate to the Single Market. Norway has to obey all those directives (or it loses access to the Single Market) but gets no say as to what the Single Market rules are. Norway stays outside because of its fishing industry (a major beef her in the UK too) and local factors relating to its relationship with Sweden. The Norwegian model is not independence but powerlessness.
The EU stands for whatever its members agree it stands for, often with veto powers or decided by qualified majority. And QMV only needs a member state to get 2 or 3 other allies- and if you can’t get 2 or 3 others to support you its likely your position didn’t deserve support. Fundamentally, it is a place where neighbours do business with each other. A different kind of business than they did in the first half of the 20th century. It has myriad problems but no one ever leaves and its an oasis of prosperity and freedom compared to other times in europes history and other places in the world.
And on some other issues raised. I really have to take issue with the comments made on Orwell— as British social democrat I was brought up on his books. Because democracy is an ideology as Orwell knew only too well— and some parties are not democratic. Although anti-captialist, the great political choice that Orwell made was to warn of the dangers of totalitarianism and autocracy. And to favour liberal democracy over its alternatives. He was a democratic socialist— emphasising the democratic part because some other political groups on the Left were not— particularly Stalinists.
The political process in liberal democracies is founded upon an ideology that justfies those structure and processes. The Radicals and Socialists made it clear by their conduct in office that they do not accept basic liberal democratic norms. At the most basic level of not rigging elections or having your opponents murdered. Orwell would have had nothing but scorn for them all— particularly Milosevic.
Blackbird ‘not because he necessarily favors the Radicals, but to show Tadic that he, Kostunica, isn’t going to allow himself to be railroaded by people with little or no principle, little or no self-respect.’
Another way of saying this is that he is willing to make the entire country suffer because of personal pride. A true leader needs to be above pettiness and go beyond representing his party interests. I pointed this out in the recent actions of DSS. They have hardly been consistent let alone principled. It might look like I’m being hard on them but trust me this is the case. When they start to behave with a little more self respect I will give them a break.
No, principle has little to do with it. Its all about getting the best bargaining position with DSS playing the indecisive blushing bride to both the radicals against the democratic party. Frankly its sickening and sluttish.
Something else, much of the Serbian media will fall in behind what remains of the so called democratic block. I’ve been watching RTS carefully in the past few days for signs. Despite Tijanic’s closeness to Kostunica I noted that RTS (he) is reporting on all activities undertaken by those that opposed the election of speaker Nikolic. Tijanic has always had a patron but history shows that likes to see himself as being bigger than his patron and sometimes he resists political pressure. Tijanic’s role will be important if it does go to repeat elections – although admittedly it should not be.
I note that Olja Beckovic has Tadic lined up for interview on Sunday evening. I note that Studio B (ostensibly currently controlled by DSS) had 3 guests (including St Protic) that were mounting attacks against Kostunica. St Protic was openly over and over again calling Kostunica a liar.
Ok here is the ideal, ok not ideal but least worst solution which I doubt will happen frankly. Kostunica as PM. DSS agree to let Jocic go as police minister, instead he can take the army. Ponos stays. In return Vladeta Jankovic becomes foreign minister – in any case DS doesnt really have good candidates for foreign minister. Plus there isnt much difference between DSS foreign policy (in the hands of an expert and not some cheap populist) and DS foreign policy. This might have the desired effect of reaching a government and promoting moderates within DSS.
Ian, what Orwell would think of the Radicals or Socialists is not at issue. He was only mentioned in the context of the perversion of political language. No one here is coming out in support of the Radicals, but against the meddling of the EU.
As for your comments on Norway, I was expecting that to get brought up. Serbia would be powerless on Single Market issues within the EU or without, which is fair enough – if you want to export to a country, your products should satisfy the regulations of that country. However, by staying out, Serbia stays out of the EU political project, the project of ever closer union. With regard to QMV, a nation state should never have laws imposed on it by other countries, against the will of its people – and that’s that.
Beogradjane, I’ve never heard a party referred to as sluttish!
I think Koštunica is doing the best he can for the country, given that he’s got the bloody DS on one side and the morons from SRS on the other. What’s probably going to happen (in my opinion, of course) is that DS is going to give way, DSS will take the lead in the new goverment on the big issues, while G17+ will get the economic posts and DS will get one or two of the big ministries, of which at least one of the security ones, and the balance. Don’t quote me… If there are new elections, my vote will go to Koštunica again, as he has proved to be an able political operator, and unlike the rest of them he has the right idea for the country’s future.
bg anon,
Thanks for the rundown of what you believe — it’s always interesting to hear why and what people think.
Whether Kostunica is acting on personal pride or for what he thinks is in the long term interests of the country is, evidently, in the eye of the beholder. Could it be possible that there is one leader in Serbia who wants self-respect for his country AND himself and also doesn’t believe is ass-kissing and/or blackmail? Kowtowing to the EU will not stand Serbia in good stead in her future, that’s what I believe. Go ahead and join it if you can do it on Serbia’s terms, but if you fall all over yourselves, tongues hanging out, in your eagerness to join the EU on ANY terms, such as imposed conditions as they are now, don’t be surprised at how Serbia is regarded later — even worse than now, I predict, and that will be going very low indeed.
The sovereignty of states is already not respected. The longterm goal of the EU will be to obliterate all borders eventually and that’s why they already feel entitled to meddle in Serbia’s internal affairs.
I’ve been forgetting my manners. Thanks bganon for the long answers to my questions.
On the EU again I think the discussion here is of an EU that no longer exists. The integration project has hit the buffers. Not least because of all the new entrants. Luxembourg and Belgium would favour a federation but they are hardly the majority anymore. An EU of 25 states plus is never going to agree to a federation. With the current set up it’ll be hard to agree on much of anything.
I also want to explore what is meant by the heavy price Serbia is supposedly being asked to pay. If this means difficult and painful economic decisions then you have to consider whether EU membership really is in Serbias interests. If this is code for arresting Mladic then let’s be clear about that.
Because if so, this supposed defence of sovereignty is really about the alleged right to have army generals murder thousands of people in cold blood and never justify defend their actions in court. This is no principle worthy of the name.
Ian, if Mladic could be allowed to be tried in Serbia that would be different. But Serbia can’t do that because then she would be pounced on to turn him over to a court that has a high mortality rate for the Serbs in its captivity. It’s also possible that the Serbian government doesn’t know where he is. In any case, it’s NOT justified for the EU or anybody to demand Mladic, when this is an issue for the Serbs to handle, were they allowed to do so. Furthermore the evidence against him is under a HUGE question mark, whether you will have it so or not. This presumption of guilt works with the program they’ve set up and does not necessarily have anything to do with facts.
Having said this, I will also repeat, yet again, that I have always wished Mladic and Kardjic COULD be tried because it might finally bring out some semblence of truth, or at least some actual facts with evidence, which is far from what we have now.
I have an offer for you, how about you exchange Bliar for Mladic. Fair’s fair. More than fair. The first is KNOWN to have murdered countless people and takes pride in it, frequently pounding his chest about it, and the other one is potentially another scapegoat for the sins of the West. To sit on your high horse and smugly pontificate, based on BBC -style propaganda, about “generals who have murdered in cold blood” might make you feel morally superior but it’s a very flimsy deck of cards you’re sitting on and it’s getting older and more worn by the minute.
As you might have guessed, the above comment was from me — some quirk caused the wrong moniker to go up.
Estavisti: “If there are new elections, my vote will go to Koštunica again, as he has proved to be an able political operator, and unlike the rest of them he has the right idea for the country’s future.“
Ha, and I thought I was the one believing in bullshit.
Blackbird: _”...Mladić, Blair, more than fair…”
Wow, amazing – try writing a whole song about it!
Ok, I ran out of inspiration – no use beating a dead horse.
Over & Out.
You’re out of inspiration? That’s not hard to believe.
Ian, what you’ve done is a замена теза – setting up a straw man. The heavy price, as you should know by now, is the demanded acquiescence to the amputation of 15% of Serbia’s territory, for the questionable benefits of EU membership.
Nemanja, Koštunica may not be perfect, but given the alternatives (pro-West fanatics, pro-Russia fanatics) he’s the only acceptable option on the scene to me. As for his political abilities, he seems to be doing quite well on Kosovo, the constitution, and the negotiations for forming a government, wouldn’t you say?
“I have an offer for you, how about you exchange Bliar for Mladic. Fair’s fair. More than fair.”
He’s going to be an ordinary citizen in a few weeks so be my guest.
As you live in America, could Serbia take Bush at the same time?
estavisti- good point on Kosovo. At least this is an issue of substance.
I don’t see how Kostunica has done well on Kosovo. If he says Kosovo really will be integrated back into Serbia then he has to answer some basic questions about it. Really basic questions.
When and how will any army and police return to Kosovo?
What will he do when the Kosovan Parliament declares independence?
What kind of school system will operate if Albanians are integrated into Serbian public life?
How will their parties operate in Parliament?
The worst things is that the parties (not just DSS) don’t think that even half practical proposals are necessary on these issues. It’s all posturing.
Yes, you can have Bush on a plate for all I care, AND his close associates, but only with the stipulation that you take the Clintons and all their cronies along with him. They’re all buddies now so they won’t mind spending time together in jail.
Ian, since you obviously didn’t bother doing any research before wrongly saying there’s no plan: http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/.
estavisti— I said ‘half practical proposals’ not that they hadn’t issued a plan.